Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 01-16-2013, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peanutaxis

The book of Mormon has 11 witnesses to seeing the Golden Plates. Being far more modern, surely this is infinitely more reliable than the supposed eyewitnesses to the (contradictory and shamelessly copied) life of Jesus.

?

Mormons book is copied fiction of one mans personal interpretation. Im not sure anyone credible would argue any more or less.

The NT however does have some historical truths.

andrewcriddle · 01-17-2013, 12:31 PM

There may be corroboration for the existence of the golden plates. There seems to be no corroboration for Smith's claims as to their contents.

Andrew Criddle

Atheos · 01-17-2013, 12:38 PM

There is eyewitness corroboration of the "translation" process though.

andrewcriddle · 01-17-2013, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atheos

There is eyewitness corroboration of the "translation" process though.

I can show you something incomprehensible and then translate it. It is quite easy as long as nobody is unkind enough to ask for evidence that my translation is correct.

Andrew Criddle

Atheos · 01-17-2013, 02:57 PM

Agreed, but as I understand the topic at hand the whole point of this is that the quality of documentation, authenticity, chain of custody, etc., for the book of Mormon is several orders of magnitude greater than that supporting the NT canon. It's comical to see the dance done by those claiming to employ objective scholarship who reject the BOM while accepting the NT canon. The irony is ... pretty ironic.

Sheshbazzar · 01-17-2013, 03:07 PM

That's why they were put on earth.

aa5874 · 01-17-2013, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

There may be corroboration for the existence of the golden plates. There seems to be no corroboration for Smith's claims as to their contents.

Andrew Criddle

There may be NO corroboration for the existence of the golden plates if Only Mormons claimed they saw them.

TedM · 01-17-2013, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

I agree that the evidence for the golden plates is better than the evidence for the Gospel miracles. My point is that eye witness testimony that the impossible occurred, even if there is eyewitness testimony, isn't good enough. Again, Hume explained it much better than I can in this format.

Steve

So is your point that the golden plates were not impossible? Surely, the impossible cannot be made possible by eyewitnesses, however many there may be.

Maybe the witness testimony regarding the plates was true and reliable:

How many plates did they see? Weren't the writings indecipherable? Is it not possible for Smith himself to have created some phony gold-plated 'plates' with strange lettering and symbols on them, and duped his friends into thinking there were hundreds of others given to him by the angel?

sotto voce · 01-18-2013, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TedM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sotto voce

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juststeve

I agree that the evidence for the golden plates is better than the evidence for the Gospel miracles. My point is that eye witness testimony that the impossible occurred, even if there is eyewitness testimony, isn't good enough. Again, Hume explained it much better than I can in this format.

Steve

So is your point that the golden plates were not impossible? Surely, the impossible cannot be made possible by eyewitnesses, however many there may be.

Maybe the witness testimony regarding the plates was true and reliable:

How many plates did they see? Weren't the writings indecipherable? Is it not possible for Smith himself to have created some phony gold-plated 'plates' with strange lettering and symbols on them, and duped his friends into thinking there were hundreds of others given to him by the angel?

Oh, the whole thing is a farce, no doubt about it. Only in America...

(Though actually, Arabs were taken in by a guy in a cave.)

The interesting thing here may be that miracles are thought impossible if they support justification by faith (the gospel), but if they support justification by works (the anti-gospel, e.g. Mormonism), they are not impossible.

peanutaxis · 01-18-2013, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atheos

Agreed, but as I understand the topic at hand the whole point of this is that the quality of documentation, authenticity, chain of custody, etc., for the book of Mormon is several orders of magnitude greater than that supporting the NT canon. It's comical to see the dance done by those claiming to employ objective scholarship who reject the BOM while accepting the NT canon. The irony is ... pretty ironic.

Yes, this is what I was getting at.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

There may be NO corroboration for the existence of the golden plates if Only Mormons claimed they saw them.

It is the same for Jesus, except it is thousands of years old and they all copied one another and modified and added stuff. Comparatively the BOM is far more trustworthy!

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01-17-2013, 12:31 PM	#12
andrewcriddle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Birmingham UK Posts: 4,876	There may be corroboration for the existence of the golden plates. There seems to be no corroboration for Smith's claims as to their contents. Andrew Criddle

01-17-2013, 12:38 PM	#13
Atheos Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Heart of the Bible Belt Posts: 5,807	There is eyewitness corroboration of the "translation" process though.

01-17-2013, 02:57 PM	#15
Atheos Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Heart of the Bible Belt Posts: 5,807	Agreed, but as I understand the topic at hand the whole point of this is that the quality of documentation, authenticity, chain of custody, etc., for the book of Mormon is several orders of magnitude greater than that supporting the NT canon. It's comical to see the dance done by those claiming to employ objective scholarship who reject the BOM while accepting the NT canon. The irony is ... pretty ironic.

01-17-2013, 03:07 PM	#16
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	That's why they were put on earth.

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