Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 01-04-2008, 04:28 PM

You might find some useful comments in this thread: Robert Price on the dating of the gospels

Quote:

Luke seems already to be setting up the 12 Apostles as a college of guarantors of the orthodox tradition of Jesus. As Talbert notes, Luke makes explicit in Acts 1:21-22 that he views as an apostle one who has seen and thus can verify all the events of the Jesus story as they are preached elsewhere in Acts, namely the baptism on through the ascension.

The artificiality of this is evident from the simple fact that the 12 cannot all have been present at these events even on Luke's own showing! But he does make the effort, as Talbert shows, to have the disciples miss nothing at least from the point when they join Jesus.

E.g., while they are away on their preaching tour, there is nothing recorded of Jesus--otherwise the witnesses could not attest it! Jesus would have been a tree falling in the forest with no one there to hear the sound!

Günther Klein has gone one step farther (Die Zwölf Apostel) and argued that, whereas we hear from Paul about "the Twelve" and "the apostles," and from Mark and Matthew about "the disciples," the notion of a group of "the Twelve Apostles" is a Lukan creation to restrict the office of apostle, originally much less restrictive, to the narrow confines of the 12. The one reference to the 12 apostles in Mark would make sense as a harmonizing interpolation; in Matthew, it seems to be used in a non-technical sense ("the 12 he sent out came back").

Note that Luke has every step of the fledgling church carefully overseen by the vigilant eye of the 12 who stay magically untouched in Jerusalem even when the whole church is otherwise scattered by persecution (Acts 8:1): They authenticate the conversion of the Samaritans, the ordination of the 7, the conversion of Cornelius, the ministry of Paul.

spin · 01-05-2008, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrisK10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian

Well, if you consider Paul's view on the 'pillars' as he regards them in Galatians, then it seems odd that he would ascribe importance to the group here. If I were to take Galatians as my guide to a Pauline view of the disciples, then I would think that he couldn't less about any appearances to them. That is, unless he is citing a strong tradition, i.e. stronger than his own disregard for them, in which case one would assume that the Corinthians would know about them. It sounds suspiciously like Gospel tradition to me, in other words, material that Paul doesn't seem to have any knowledge of elsewhere in his writings.

Thanks for the additional ideas in favor of interpolation. As I said, seems like a possibility. It's odd though that if someone where going to add gospel material to Paul's 1 Cor 15, they would not add the discovered empty tomb.

Obviously proof of resurrection is more effective than the empty tomb, which though alright for Mk, was unacceptable for the other gospel writers, who had to go beyond.

spin

Mythra · 01-05-2008, 06:24 AM

Burton Mack, in "Who Wrote the New Testament" doesn't treat "the twelve" in 1 Cor 15 as an interpolation. He considers it authentic to early tradition - but he does treat it as fictive and legendary in nature:

The idea of twelve disciples was already in currency when Paul was active in the 50's, for he includes "the twelve" in his list of those to whom Jesus, he said, appeared after his death (1 Cor. 15:5). And at the later stages of Q's composition a saying was added about disciples sitting on thrones in the kingdom of God, "judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Q 22:28-30). [note: Mack uses "Q" verses as they are found in GLk] These references show that the notion "the twelve" was developed in the course of mythic elaborations with the purpose of laying claim to the concept of Israel. Names were not mentioned because the concept was a fiction and would work best without naming names. It was not until Mark wrote his gospel in the 70's that we have a list of names for the twelve disciples, presumably his own short list of names associated with the early phases of the Jesus groups known to him. And it was not until Matthew wrote his gospel in the late 80's that Peter finally emerged as the preeminent leader of the twelve, cast now as the disciple Jesus selected to carry on his work. So for those who started to worry about the truth of their gospel toward the end of the first century, and how the gospel instructions had gotten from Jesus to them, some juggling of the "historical" records was absolutely necessary.

Chili · 01-05-2008, 07:55 AM

Paul gives the answer to this in "The Resurrection and Faith" starting in 1 Cor 15:12 where the resurrection is justification for faith inside the mind of the believer.

He writes in v 16: Because if the dead are not raised, then Christ was not raised and it is in the mind of those for whom Christ was not raised that faith is worthless. These would be just the casual believer without any real justification for faith, such as the cold Catholic still alive in his sins.

In verse 18 he points at those who have been raised (awakened) and have gone back to sleep again in a comfort level of their own. These would be the lukewarm enriched believer now living in hope instead of finding justification for that hope. These would be those who preach the wrong Gospel of Cephas and James.

Chili · 01-05-2008, 11:09 AM

. . . and then there is Paul who was the most undeserving of all as persecutor of Christ in that he would not take 'hope in better days ahead' as an incomplete answer to his awakening. He therefore worked harder to get to the bottom of his inquisition and concludes that victory over death completes the race.

The difference is that Paul was born out of the normal course instead of a premature awakening wherein Cephas was the substitude of Peter and James the brother of Christ who returned to Judaism which caused them to fall out of favor with God to never find completion as Christian in God.

Chili · 01-05-2008, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KrisK10

In summary, I can’t find one example anywhere of a tradition in which it is claimed that 3 or more adults simultaneously saw the same dead person, and it wasn’t a case of seeing an image in an object like a dirty window, it didn’t involve drugs, and the adults that this was claimed to have happened too were people with known public identities who were still alive when the tradition was circulating. I (politely) challenge anyone to come up with one example that is comparable to the claim of an appearance by Jesus to the Twelve in 1 Cor 15:5 (or that he was seen by the Twelve).

Kris

It is called illumination which here is just one detail of the Ultimate Form wherein all is made clear and thus also the resurrection of Christ. The twelve are the eidetic images of Joseph, actually, who's strongholds they were until forsaken for the second time at Gethsemane and here now are recalled to witness their effort in the resurrection of this Man so that they, too, might be rasied into the upper room so reason can prevail in heaven as on earth.

01-05-2008, 11:09 AM	#25
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Reality exists in the metaphor. . . . and then there is Paul who was the most undeserving of all as persecutor of Christ in that he would not take 'hope in better days ahead' as an incomplete answer to his awakening. He therefore worked harder to get to the bottom of his inquisition and concludes that victory over death completes the race. The difference is that Paul was born out of the normal course instead of a premature awakening wherein Cephas was the substitude of Peter and James the brother of Christ who returned to Judaism which caused them to fall out of favor with God to never find completion as Christian in God.

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01-05-2008, 06:24 AM	#23
Mythra Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: BFE Posts: 416	Burton Mack, in "Who Wrote the New Testament" doesn't treat "the twelve" in 1 Cor 15 as an interpolation. He considers it authentic to early tradition - but he does treat it as fictive and legendary in nature: The idea of twelve disciples was already in currency when Paul was active in the 50's, for he includes "the twelve" in his list of those to whom Jesus, he said, appeared after his death (1 Cor. 15:5). And at the later stages of Q's composition a saying was added about disciples sitting on thrones in the kingdom of God, "judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Q 22:28-30). [note: Mack uses "Q" verses as they are found in GLk] These references show that the notion "the twelve" was developed in the course of mythic elaborations with the purpose of laying claim to the concept of Israel. Names were not mentioned because the concept was a fiction and would work best without naming names. It was not until Mark wrote his gospel in the 70's that we have a list of names for the twelve disciples, presumably his own short list of names associated with the early phases of the Jesus groups known to him. And it was not until Matthew wrote his gospel in the late 80's that Peter finally emerged as the preeminent leader of the twelve, cast now as the disciple Jesus selected to carry on his work. So for those who started to worry about the truth of their gospel toward the end of the first century, and how the gospel instructions had gotten from Jesus to them, some juggling of the "historical" records was absolutely necessary.

01-05-2008, 07:55 AM	#24
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Paul gives the answer to this in "The Resurrection and Faith" starting in 1 Cor 15:12 where the resurrection is justification for faith inside the mind of the believer. He writes in v 16: Because if the dead are not raised, then Christ was not raised and it is in the mind of those for whom Christ was not raised that faith is worthless. These would be just the casual believer without any real justification for faith, such as the cold Catholic still alive in his sins. In verse 18 he points at those who have been raised (awakened) and have gone back to sleep again in a comfort level of their own. These would be the lukewarm enriched believer now living in hope instead of finding justification for that hope. These would be those who preach the wrong Gospel of Cephas and James.

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