Tancred

I propose that everyone who does not believe in God, or indeed, any form of spirituality shoot themselves in the head. Before you begin quoting my post in sections and try to refute each part with psychobabble and the "worth" of the innate human condition, read it.

I was sitting, thinking, and I reached these conclusions. If we take for granted there is no God, no afterlife, no higher set of morals or ethics to conform to to satisfy some obscure spiritual requirements, we might as well all be nothing more than rutting pigs, nosing the ground for the next sensual acorn that we find in our path.

An example
James: Why doesn't the atheist kill his fellow man when he wishes to? Is it because he fears God's wrath? No. He considers it unwise.
Ted: Why?
James: Certainly the police would object.
Ted: Why should he fear the police?
James: They would place him in jail.
Ted: Why fear jail?
James: It is sensually ungratifying.
Ted: Ah, now I see.

Why is sensual gratification the ONLY determining factor in an 'aware' atheistic thought process?
Because he knows that when he dies, the electrical patterns that make up his being will disperse and once again become random energy. At the moment of death all that constitutes HIM will end. Therefore I propose the Atheist has no reason to value ANYTHING beyond the moment of his physical demise. You can rattle on about some goofy shit if you want to but, logically there is no goddamn reason for him to care. Anything such as, "I wish to educate the future generations!" is just intellectual vanity.

In this Godless universe the only morals we need adhere to are the ones we ourselves create. Why not draw a razor over the silken throat of a child? Because it is abhorrent and despicable? Excellent reasons. We only consider it abhorrent because our minds have been conditioned against such things so that we can breed more efficiently.

So, the main concern of the Atheist should be temporal sensory gratification. He should use drugs and have sex and lead a glorious sky-diving, bungee cord jumping existence. Then one day, he will die and his consciousness shall plunge into Oblivion. The total and utter void will envelop him, meanwhile his atheistic compatriots shall dance merrily and sing on, remembering him as a renowned hero of the cause. If you want to shriek in the dark watches of the night, ponder non-existence. Just goddamn ponder it.

Knowing this, why experience the pleasure at all? It's just a farce before the curtain falls, inevitably. Why not go ahead and pull the curtain? It's because you are all pigs. You want the goddamn acorns, even though you know you're going to be lead into the slaughterhouse the moment your belly is full.

(didn't get to review my argument, I'll elaborate or explain further after replies)

Rhaedas

So to believe in a god keeps you from doing immoral things? Glad you believe then...

Godless Wonder

Why so angry?

Doubting Didymus

This does not explain why almost all atheists find the murder of innocent unrelated adults also abhorrent. The effect of kin selection should not extend beyond close relatives.

This is the least of your worries, however. It seems that you base your entire case on the idea that James, the atheist in your dialogue, will trace all his moral choices back to what gratifies him sensually. While there are some atheists that reckon this way, they seem to be few and far between. You are therefore trying to tell us what you think we ought to believe, not commenting with any relevance on what we do.

Why do you suppose many of us DO do things in our lives that are not for the primary purpose of pleasure? Are we deluded? Have we just not thought things through to the extent you have? Perhaps we really secretly believe in god?

Viti

I didn't exist before I was born. I won't exist after i die. All of existence is now. Nothing scary there to shreik about. What's with the "goddamns"?

vash_the_stampede

Interesting ideas.

I have struggled with these problems a good deal myself. What motivates people to behave like more than animals? Looking at human history, one answer might be "not much", considering the amount of carnage it is filled with. And, considering that much of this carnage was done by people who believed in an afterlife, one might conclude that belief in continued existance after death does not necessarily promote less animal-like behavior in this life.

So what motivates people to overcome their animalistic urges, and become more than a creature of instinct? Do we need a mystical higher being to threaten us with eternal damnation unless we suppress our instincts? I believe this is the thrust of your argument, that we need a god's carrot to reward us for "good" and his "stick" to punish us for "evil".

This is an argument with some merit, and it is a tempting one, I admit. It is tempting because it is absolute: if I tell you something is true because I say so, you are not likely to be inclined to believe me. After all, who am I. But If I say it is god's will, then you defy not only me but the almighty as well. Any logical argument you can level against me can then be refuted as heresy and blasphemy. But the benefit is a standard of behavior that requires no thought, only compliance, and is therefore easy for all people to understand, not just those who are capable of critical thinking.

But there are other ways which civilized behavior can be justified without a deity, even with purely selfish motives. For example, all of us typing at our computers are benefiting greatly from a civilized society in which we are living in great leasure and comfort. If we go around slitting throats, or tolerate such behavior in others, the civil order will collapse, and our comfy lifestyle will vanish. So, we stamp out animalistic behavior where we find it, and suppress it in ourselves. This is only an example.

velvetfinger

Chimps, actually.

Viti

Many animals live pretty peacefully and cooperatively without a deity ::shrug::

Wiploc

I propose that everyone who does believe in god shoot themselves in the head.



If we take it for granted that the only reason for decent behavior is that god is holding a gun to our heads, then we might as all be Nazi guards at Treblinka, "just following orders" as we rationalize our divinely ordered attrocities.

I invite you to meet me here at dawn, with pistols, if you think any Christian has ever defended morality better than an atheist.

crc

homunculus

If we are all pigs, then so are you - and every other human being. Are you a paradigm of Christian virtue? I doubt it. Our moral standards and ethical systems do not descend down from on high. They are invented by us, encoded in religious myth, and preserved by tradition. What you think of as Christian values - Stoical abstinence from fleshly pleasures, rejection of material wealth etc. - are actually Greek ones, re-packaged for Hellenized Jews. The Mosaic law was altogether less civilized, as the Old Testament shows. The vengeful slaughter of men, women and children in the name of the "jealous" God Jehovah, the perversely irrational Commandements, the sanctioning of slavery and child rape - what changed?

We did, and our religion changed with us. The early Christians churned out an enormous number of Gospels, revelations and epistles, drawing on common religious motifs and themes from Asia Minor, Syria, Egypt and all over the Meditteranean. Hundreds of texts never made the "final cut" (which did not crystallize for half a millenia after the supposed death of Christ). The suffering Saviour who is born of a virgin, has his birth heralded by a star, preaches love and forgiveness, is persecuted and overcomes death - there is nothing at all revolutionary here.

You might like to pretend YOUR standards and beliefs are "given" by some invisible third party - an infallible authority figure - but you are wrong. That same fallacy is at the root of many kinds of fanatacism. The weird combination of European revolutionary politics and Islam (which itself grew out of the Judeo-Christian tradition) now spreading through the Middle East, adopts a simular attitude to its own moral edicts. Accept what we say, because our Truth is God's Truth, and God needs no justification.

Perhaps there is a God, but we know nothing about Him. We just arrogantly mistake our own culture, and our own beliefs, for His.

Paul.