S.C.Carlson

I suppose Goldberg may be considered an amateur, with a Ph.D. in physics, but his article had been published in the peer-review Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha. I'll also note that Ken Olson was a bright student in a master's program in history at U. Md. when he published his piece on the Testimonium in the Catholic Biblical Quarterly. So in a technical sense, both may be considered "amateurs", but peer review is based on merit, not credentials, and both their pieces had the merit to be published.

Stephen

Amaleq13

It would appear to have been a sufficient reason for Eusebius and the TF is only part of his support.

I don't understand how this is relevant to acknowledging that Eusebius considered the passage to be useful in supporting his argument for the miraculous powers of Jesus.

Toto

I did not mean to use the term amateur in a disparaging sense, just that it seemed Goldberg was working on his own ideas and had not interacted with the scholarly community, since I had not seen any response to his work. I wasn't aware that Goldberg had published his article (but what does it have to do with pseudepigraphia?) Do you know of any response to the article?

Roger Pearse

IIRC they are translated in the Loeb text.

Someone was interested in these, in various versions, a couple of years back -- was it perhaps Peter Kirby? Are you sure that this isn't online somewhere?

The summaries at the front of books and ancient chapter titles etc is one of my interests, and appears to be an area in which scholarship is genuinely not very well advanced.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Ben C Smith

I have it in Greek only from the Perseus site. I am unaware of it having been translated into English online.

Again, I am not aware of this being online, but Shlomo Pines gives the fuller context in his classic on Agapius and the Testimonium. Agapius is listing historians who mentioned Jesus. Part of the context is about Phlegon, which you can read on my site (scroll down to almost the end of the page). After that paragraph Agapius cites another historian, unknown to us, and then follows the citation of the Testimonium, after which Agapius considers certain chronological questions arising from Josephus and the ministry of Jesus.

Ben.

ETA: The Perseus link, for convenience.

Roger Pearse

Unfortunately Agapius Universal history has never been translated into English. But a French translation does exist in the Patrologia Orientalis:

Main Author: Agapius, Bishop of Hierapolis, 10th cent
Title Details: Kitab al-'unvan = Histoire universelle / écrite par Agapius (Mahboub) de Menbidj ; editée et traduite en français par Alexandre Vasiliev
Series: Patrologia Orientalis ; t. 5, fasc. 4 ; t. 7, fasc. 4 ; t. 8, fasc. 3 ; t. 11, fasc. 1
Publisher: Paris : Firmin-Didot, 1910-
Physical desc.: v ; 29 cm
Note: Arabic and French
Subject: World history
Other Names: Vasil'ev, A. A. (Aleksandr Aleksandrovich), b. 1867
Language: Arabic
French

Since it takes up four fascicles of the PO, the whole work is of some size and about the same length as the History of the Coptic Patriarchs of Alexandria by Severus of Al'Ashmounein (in case anyone wants a comparison with something that is online).

It looks as if an edition with Latin translation also exists in the CSCO series, done by L. Cheiko.

So your best bet is to

1. Get hold of Shlomo Pines and find out precisely where in Agapius this passage appears. With luck he will quote the PO reference.
2. Get hold of the appropriate volume of the PO (probably in a rare books department of a university library), find the passage, and see what the sentences before and after are (it's not too much to type in a couple of sentences in French in www.freetranslation.com, surely?)

I hope that helps.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

S.C.Carlson

That may be generally true, but it is false for my hard drive.

Here's a snippet of my so far uncorrected translation of the French translation for the immediate context for the Testimonium:

There are since Adam until this period 5539 years, after which said H.r. l..s(?). [But the writers are not in agreement] on this subject, and each of them says that he who [does not go beyond] the limits of his knowledge. The first among them, Eusebius says that since Adam [until the Passion of Our Lord], may he be glorified, there are five… years … 5350 years. As for the Hebrews, they only count 4000 years; the Samaritans, 4365. The philosophers recount in their books that the day of the Passion of Christ, may he be glorified, … and the volume… … kings, who, under the reign of Caesar, the sun was obscured and made night on the ninth hour and the stars appeared; a violent earthquake took place in Nicea and in all the surrounding cities; and some extraordinary things occurred. The philosopher Ursinus says in the fifth chapter of his work on the wars and expeditions of the kings: “We were in a great affliction and a long anguish. The sun was obscured; the earth trembled; we learned that some extraordinary and terrifying things occurred in the land of the Hebrews, and know its cause by the letters which the governor Pilate wrote about Palestine to Tiberius Caesar, when he said that on the death of a man that the Jews crucified, all these things occurred.” Learning that, Caesar send some orders and dismissed Pilate from the government of Judea, because he yielded to the Jews; and he threatened and intimidated the Jews, who had crucified the Christ.

Josephus the Hebrew also speaks of it in his works that he wrote on the wars of the Jews: “In this period, there was a wise man named Jesus, whose life was perfect; his virtues were recognized; and many of the Jews and Gentiles were made his disciples. And Pilate condemned him to death on the cross; and those who have been made his disciples, preached his teaching. They affirmed that he appeared alive to them three days after his Passion. Perhaps he was the Messiah concerning which the Prophets had said marvels.” Here is the account of Josephus and his coreligionists concerning Our Lord the Christ, may he be glorified.

It is also said that the whole life of Our Lord the Christ, may he be glorified, and his preaching (or his journeying) happened under the pontificate of Hannan and Caiaphas, because they were high priests in those years, i.e. from the pontificate of Hannan until the beginning of the pontificate of Caiaphas: as to the time that elapsed between them, it was not the time of four complete years, because, when Herod was named governor, he had the genealogical books of the tribes of the Hebrews burned, in order that it would not be known that he was of a less regarded race among them; and he took the priestly garment, put it under seal, and he only let each high priest take office for one year. On account of that, there were four high priests from the pontificate of Hannan until that of Caiaphas: After Hannan had been dismissed, Ismael, son of Yachya, succeeded him; one year later, Eleazar, son of Hannan, succeeded him as high priest; after his year had ended, Simeon, son of Qamihud, succeeded him. This one had Caiaphas for his successor, in the time and under the pontificate of which Our Lord the Christ, may he be glorified, was cruicified. There were between Hannan and Caiaphas less than four years, according to Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea.

NB: for scholarly work, one must consult the original Arabic.

S.C.Carlson

Yes, Paget in his survey article (p. 573, n. 230) describes Goldberg's proposal while stopping just short of endorsing of it, yet advancing no negative criticisms against it.

Stephen

Malachi151

S.C.Carlson: Wow, great thanks. Boy, what a mixed up writing that was. I just want to make sure of something, Agapios was a Muslim correct?

S.C.Carlson

You're welcome.

No. He was an Arabic-speaking Melkite Christian, bishop of Hierapolis (Mabug).

Stephen