Freethought & Rationalism Archive

rlogan · 11-05-2004, 12:04 AM

Josephus has a lot of fellows with the name Jesus throughout his writings. At least four high priests. Sons of high priests. Leaders of bands who fought Romans. But my favorite one is from Jewish Wars, book Six Chapter 5.

This Jesus is truly inspirational in character. Prescient. Indomitable. Focused.

Also notable is that this Jesus had a "ministry" imediately before and during the fall of Jerusalem.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Jesus, son of Ananus:

Quote:

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!"

This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before.

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!"

And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come.

This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

rostau · 11-05-2004, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rlogan

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Jesus, son of Ananus:

Juvenile humor deleted by mod. Sorry, this is a forum for the discussion of Biblical criticism and history, not bad jokes - Toto

Toto · 11-05-2004, 12:57 AM

As was noted in this thread, there is some scholarly opinion that this part of Josephus was a source in constructing the gospel story of Jesus.

Vorkosigan · 11-05-2004, 01:34 AM

In addition to Weeden, a number of scholars have seen this link.

Craig Evans (1995:108) analyzed Josephus's account of Jesus ben Ananias. Like Jesus, he predicted doom on Jerusalem and the Temple, even referring to Jeremiah's prophecy of judgment against the temple (Jer 7:34), just as Mark did in Mk 11:17. Note that the Jewish authorities arrest and beat Jesus ben Ananias and hand him over to the Roman governor, who interrogates him. He refuses to answer the governor, was scourged and then released. Although Jesus was not released, Pilate asks the crowd in 15:9 whether they want Jesus released, and eventually does release Barabbas, who, though Evans does not make the connection, is a double of Jesus. Lawrence Wills (The Quest of the Historical Gospel 1997, p160) further fleshes out the parallels:

*he enters Jerusalem for a pilgrimage festival (Sukkot)
*he delivers an oracle against Jerusalem, the Temple, and the people
*he is seized by leading citizens
*he is beaten, later scouraged
*he offers no answer to interrogators
*he is taken by them to the Roman procurator
*he is considered a madman (exestokos; compare Mark 3:21 exeste, and also John 7:20)
*he prophesies his own death
*he dies

One should add, of course, that his name was "Jesus."

Eisenman mentioned this somewhere in James the Brother of Jesus but I am too lazy to go look for it.

Hope this helps:

Toto · 11-05-2004, 12:29 PM

Chili's opinions have been split off here since they threatened to divert the thread into uncharted territory.

rlogan · 11-05-2004, 05:38 PM

Dang!

Thanks Toto and Vork.

Don't know how I missed that thread from April. This Jesus has been my favorite for a while, and it did occur to me that this Jesus could have been part of the "composite Jesus" in the Gospels.

You know, it would just be too cute to have this guy as the kernel of truth behind the gospel. Monty python material...

fta · 11-05-2004, 08:38 PM

And to think some Christians have assured me that the name "Jesus" was a very uncommon and special one in biblical times.

CX · 11-09-2004, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fta

And to think some Christians have assured me that the name "Jesus" was a very uncommon and special one in biblical times.

Are they aware that "Jesus" is not a biblical name, but an English transliteration of the Greek IHSOUS which is itself a transliteration of the semitic YESHU'A? Do they realize that YESHU'A is normally transliterated as Joshua in english? Ask them how many Joshua's they think there were in biblical times.

fta · 11-09-2004, 01:31 PM

Exactly -- probably the same proportion of Joshuas as there are today. But how does one argue with someone who simply refuses to accept they're wrong?

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11-05-2004, 12:57 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	As was noted in this thread, there is some scholarly opinion that this part of Josephus was a source in constructing the gospel story of Jesus.

11-05-2004, 01:34 AM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	In addition to Weeden, a number of scholars have seen this link. Craig Evans (1995:108) analyzed Josephus's account of Jesus ben Ananias. Like Jesus, he predicted doom on Jerusalem and the Temple, even referring to Jeremiah's prophecy of judgment against the temple (Jer 7:34), just as Mark did in Mk 11:17. Note that the Jewish authorities arrest and beat Jesus ben Ananias and hand him over to the Roman governor, who interrogates him. He refuses to answer the governor, was scourged and then released. Although Jesus was not released, Pilate asks the crowd in 15:9 whether they want Jesus released, and eventually does release Barabbas, who, though Evans does not make the connection, is a double of Jesus. Lawrence Wills (The Quest of the Historical Gospel 1997, p160) further fleshes out the parallels: he enters Jerusalem for a pilgrimage festival (Sukkot) he delivers an oracle against Jerusalem, the Temple, and the people he is seized by leading citizens he is beaten, later scouraged he offers no answer to interrogators he is taken by them to the Roman procurator he is considered a madman (exestokos; compare Mark 3:21 exeste, and also John 7:20) he prophesies his own death *he dies One should add, of course, that his name was "Jesus." Eisenman mentioned this somewhere in James the Brother of Jesus but I am too lazy to go look for it. Hope this helps:

11-05-2004, 12:29 PM	#5
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Chili's opinions have been split off here since they threatened to divert the thread into uncharted territory.

11-05-2004, 05:38 PM	#6
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Dang! Thanks Toto and Vork. Don't know how I missed that thread from April. This Jesus has been my favorite for a while, and it did occur to me that this Jesus could have been part of the "composite Jesus" in the Gospels. You know, it would just be too cute to have this guy as the kernel of truth behind the gospel. Monty python material...

11-05-2004, 08:38 PM	#7
fta Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Oceania Posts: 334	And to think some Christians have assured me that the name "Jesus" was a very uncommon and special one in biblical times.

11-09-2004, 01:31 PM	#9
fta Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Oceania Posts: 334	Exactly -- probably the same proportion of Joshuas as there are today. But how does one argue with someone who simply refuses to accept they're wrong?

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