judge

So marcions version was first, then another was produced?


You seem confused. You just claimed Marcions opponents produced another version, now you are saying some people (whoever that may be) suspect they did.

Robert will need evidence, and we all know that there isn't any. All we have rightly or wrongly is what the RCC has kept for us.
Now maybe the RCC destroyed the evidence and constructed a fabrication in this regard, and were able to wipe out all trace even in the large areas never under their control. Anything is possible I guess.
But without evidence we dont have a theory that any rational sceptic should believe. We just have speculation without evidence which includes a lack of explantion on some important points

Toto

I'm not confused. Marcion produced a set of letters, and his opponents then produced their own set - which they claimed were the originals that Marcion had taken over.

Non evangelical scholars think that Marcion might have removed some text, but that the proto-orthodox added more text to counter Marcion. A few scholars think that Marcion wrote the Pauline letters himself.

Duvduv

How do you know that Marcion produced a set of letters?

judge

You are using the word "produced" in an ambiguous and ultimately misleading way. Its the kind of thing one can get away with in an internet forum but all you end up doing Toto is lowering the standard of this forum


Again we have this vague and misleading wording. Unwilling or unable to use language precisely. Using it in a way that is misleading.

All you end up doing is lowering the standard of the forum.

You are prepared to qualify the second part with .."a few" but avoid being precise in the first part, preferring to be vague and ultimately misleading with your words.

judge

As I state above Toto is IMHO using the Englsih language in a vague and misleading way. Maybe unconsciously.
"Produced" can have such a variety of meanings.
Toto allows himself just enough wriggle room to wriggle away.
But it doesn't help any of us try to discuss this and learn. It just provides a smokescreen to obscure things

tanya

1. how do you know the date of composition of GMark?
2. What text can you quote, just one line is sufficient, from "Paul's" letters, to demonstrate that the letters must have been authored prior to GMark?
3. Which source of history are you employing to assert a perfect match with the "history" contained in the text of "Paul's" letters?

judge

Mark is way too specific about the jewish war to have been written before hand.
Paul letters seem to be before

aa5874

Again, your claims about Marcion is NOT credible. Even apologetic sources like Hippolytus and Ephraim do NOT at all mention that Marcion used or had the Pauline letters in his possession.

Please do some research instead of repeating RUMORS and Chineses Whispers.

Apologetic sources like Justin Martyr and Aristides were NOT aware of an Apostle called Paul that preached Jesus crucified and resurrected to people all over the world.

Again, NO apologetic source of antiquity that listed the works of Tertullian has claimed he wrote "Against Marcion".

"Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian MUST be a FORGERY.

What problem???

All the evidence that "Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian is a forgery is available and for over 1500 years.

Marcion used the doctrine and writings of Empedocles.

Sheshbazzar

Unfortunately another argument from authority, sans the revealing of some previously overlooked, or newly discovered amazing new information, is not going to solve these old 'problems' that thousands of other scholars, writers and authority figures have never yet been able to resolve to satisfaction.

aa5874

Again, we have the writings of Hippolytus and Ephraim the Syrian and they did NOT show at all that Marcion used the Pauline writings.

Ephraim wrote THREE Proses "Against Marcion" and there is NOT one verse of a Pauline letter found in those writings.

Hippolytus wrote "Refutation of All Heresies" and stated that Marcion did NOT use the Pauline doctrine but that of EMPEDOCLES. See Refutation of All Heresies 7.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/050107.htm

Ephraim the Syrian corroborated Justin Martyr and Hippolytus but did NOT at all corroborate "Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian.

"Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian is a Forgery and was NOT listed in the works of Tertullian up to 200 years after by any writer who mentioned the writings of Tertullian.