BadBadBad

I'll be happy to get into that more conclusively if you'll answer this one question of mine first.

There is a green leprachaun at the end of a rainbow. He's got a pot of gold and three wishes he wants to grant you. Do you desire his free gifts?

jdlongmire

No.

BadBadBad

You say they were predestined to a fate (ie final consequence) of communion with God. You said they weren't in need of salvation. Only the Bible story clearly ends with A&E being separate from God. Therefore their fate was not communion with God. Then you say they were free to change their fate, ie not predestined. Then you said they sinned, ie they were in need of salvation. They were elect, ie predestined to salvation, only they didn't receive that, ie reprobate, not elect.

That's a nice dance you're doing to go along with that song too. It's quite entertaining actually. It's just not the levitation trick we all came to see.

BadBadBad

Then you won't receive them.

jdlongmire

Surely one can reject election if they have Free Will?

Should God have removed Free Will?

Wouldn't have been free then.

BTW: I answered unequivocaly your question. Would you please answer mine?

Would you receive the free gift of salvation from God?

blt to go

And you are keeping it up nicely with this: I need a smilie that depicts me laughing so hard I fall off my chair and clutch my sides. The "rolling" laughter just does not cut it.

To ask that question in this thread is great! I am still smiling.

How could I NOT accept that "free" gift? (Note the quotes. Deal with that later.) That is the WHOLE POINT of Predestination!!!

I thought your god was sovereign? Whatever he does to man is acceptable in his "justice" system, right? If god wants to give me something (say an ability to sin, a disease, death, withered arm, blindness, etc.) how can I possibly resist? I CAN'T.

Would I accept his gift? If I am elected, (and please note the difference between election and predestination) I would have no choice. My desire, acceptance, or lack thereof Makes No freaking difference.

Would I accept his gift? If I am NOT elected it makes no difference. My desire, acceptance or lack thereof Makes No freaking difference.

Why ask a question that has no answer? It is STILL making me smile. In this thread, where God has pre-ordained, pre-determined, pre-destined, pre-known, and pre-elected every single person, BEFORE the world was created, who would and would not accept this gift, whether I would accept it or not is a completely irrelevant question!

That is the whole POINT!!! Again!!! IF god has pre-selected you, you are in. No if, and or buts. And certainly acceptance is unimportant. If not, you are out.

Why does God need my acceptance?

Now let's look at this "gift." I'll let you in a secret. This is the heart of christianity. This is where the beast is at its most vunerable. Here's a news flash for you-- It is NOT a gift! That's right, for all its pride in the fact that Christianity is not a works-based religion, in point of fact, it is. Oh, the work is not MUCH, I will grant you, but it is still there, and it is still a requirement.

You have to "accept" the salvation. You have to "believe" in god.

This is NOT a gift. This is a conditional promise. IF you believe on God THEN you will be saved. IF you accept the premise, THEN you will go to Heaven. A true gift is given WITHOUT the condition that the other person accepts it.

Let me try an example. An individual helped me out, and I wanted to pay him, so I left $100 in his office. He refused my "gift" so he mailed it back to me. I then donated it to the Red Cross in his name. That he Could NOT refuse, since he had absolutley no control over it.

That is the difference, as Jobar has been trying to point out. If God is sovereign, and he desires ALL to go to heaven, and it is a gift, he does not need us in the equation at all! Certainly he does not need our acceptance.

But if christianity preached this logical conclusion, soon people would realize they don't need christianity. If God is going to give it to them as a true gift (no conditions, acceptances, beliefs, attached) then christianity becomes unnecessary. Can't have that!

So, in the end, christianity is the same works-based religion as every other one. You still have to perform some action on your own, as a human, before you get it.

Another example of how this "plan of salvation" is not a gift, and how God could give it to everyone without a requirement.

According to christians, God gave us the gift of life. We had no choice in the matter. While we may END this gift, we had no choice in the beginning. God did not come to us and say, "you have a choice as to whether you exist your not."

Nope, we just woke up one day with this gift, whether we like it or not. In the exact same way, god could just as easily give us the gift of salvation or heaven. No choice in the matter.

Would I accept it? The answer is, how, with the sovereignty of your god, the predestination of your god, and the election of your god, would I POSSIBLY have any choice in the matter?

NOW, back to the question posted before. In case you forgot:

Columbus

Of course I would. What possible reason would anyone have for choosing not to? There isn't one.

No-one is ever free to decline such a gift. Nothing could possibly be of more value than eternal joy. The only reason for people to lose out is that we are taught not to believe things that seem illogical and are supported only by someone else's opinion. If there were a God who wanted me to believe I would. I'm not at all unreasonable.

I don't require people to be raised from the dead, or water made into wine (although I'd really appreciate it!). A noticable difference in morals between Christians and everyone else would be sufficient. Absolutely anything that gave me a reason to believe that Christianity is true, that most other religions don't exhibit, would do it. I've never seen any such thing. And I have looked.

Tom

jdlongmire

Not good enough, buddy. You have accused me of prevarication before.

Yes or No.

jdlongmire

Tom, it's not about Christianity, it is about you.

Would you accept the free gift of salvation from God as it is offered and explained in Scripture and by the testimony of your own heart?

jdlongmire

Kept all information in for full disclosure...

JD

The ground of discrimination that exists among men is the sovereign will of God and that alone; but the ground of damnation to which the reprobate are consigned is sin and sin alone.

--JOHN CALVIN