diana

Are you saying you feel shame when you violate your own moral code?

What's the difference between the feeling of guilt and the feeling of shame? I've always equated one with an infraction of someone's rules and the other with violated modesty in some sense, although I suspect they are practically synonyms in reality.

d

Jinksy

It's two different concerns. One is self-interest, which everyone has to some degree. The other is 'morality', which means different things to different people. To me it means utilitarianism.

In that case you've just defined yourself as being right, and there's no counter-claim in existence. But like any tautological truth, it tells us nothing of any use :huh:

diana

Are you saying your personal moral code doesn't not take your self-interests into account? I'm really quite curious how that works, as it strikes me on the surface as being counter-intuitive.

Jinsky, how is it you believe people behave in ways adverse to their personal convictions of what is right and wrong? This seems to be the standard that everyone accepts, but I don't understand how it works. Can you explain?

And think about the "because I feel like it" line. Jinsky, do you believe it's wrong to sleep with someone else's wife? "Yes." Then why did you sleep with your neighbor's wife? "Because I felt like it."

To take both at face value doesn't make sense. You believe it's so wrong that you don't even bother to think of a good excuse? I'm sorry...I'm going to walk away from the conversation convinced you don't really believe it's wrong at all. I believe I'm justified in my conclusion.

d

bluexxrayne

Often I find myself overthinking about things. I have yet to truly figure myself out; what is truly right and what is truly wrong in my personal convictions. I believe sometimes people, having the same internal conflict of interests as I, often do things which they may not know how to define with moral ethics at the time. Throughout experience we gain knowledge, not only of the world, but of ourselves and our standards as well. Some of the things I have done in the past, although to the worlds standards are not wrong, I have come to realize are wrong to me and my beliefs. Letting myself go with the flow of things, trying to analyze and understand my mindset; it has left me a bit more wiser and with understandings that many people cannot grasp. Although I have found my moral standards now, I am still a bit... ashamed? guilty? I believe it is more shame. Shame is more, in my definition, a feeling of embarassment about ones actions/words. Guilt, to me, is more of a feeling of consequence for actions taken. Although I am ashamed at my previous actions, I do not feel guilty for some of the things I have done for it was all a learning expereince. If I had known in my own moral standings that what I was doing went against my beliefs and what I stand for- that would bring about more the feelings of guilt. Extreme example:abortion - if i got pregnant and decided to go for an abortion I would feel guilt later on because it is something that does not adhere to my beliefs. Shame on the other hand would be more of loking back on something that may or may not have gone against your moral code and thinking, "Oh, why did I do that?!" As for the "becuase I felt like it" excuse- it is nothing but dribble and hogwash. There is always a reason.

Things are much harder to understand for people who not have experience with those situations. As with myself, I am in a learning process. Everyone goes through them for various aspects. I am trying to figure out just exactly what I believe in. Why do people act in ways adverse to their personal convictions? Some dont understand their emotions, what they believe in, or have been confused by inner and outer conflicts throughout their entire lives. Some people act out against their beliefs to try and cancel them out-- for whatever reason it may be. I was in an abusive relationship for two years- something I, for all of my life, have swore I would never get into. But at that time, my mind had been so shifted and reshaped that I was but a mere shell of a person. My insecurites within myself allowed him to find a way into my mind. The manupulation and control broke me down into someone I didnt even recognize. I just wanted to be loved and figured there was nothing better out there for me. With all of this, I violated my own principles of never staying in an abusive relationship.

Basically, if you go through something you can understand its working much better. Why did I stay? There was no where for me to go, no true way out without money- which he took from me every pay period. Do I feel shame or guilt for my actions? I feel ashamed for letting myself go to such a level. I had guilt for putting myself through such a situation for so long- but honestly, I am in a much better place now- and it was all a learning experience to get me from one stage of my life to another. If I had not been through these situations and conflicts of self I would definately not be the person I am today.

Jinksy

The goal of utilitarianism is to promote everyone's wellbeing to an equal degree. In as much as 'morality' means anything, that's what I think it means. Therefore actions which are likely to have a detrimental effect to overall happiness are 'immoral' to me.

Probably not, if you still disagree. I distinguish between things that affect me, and things that affect other people (or more strictly everyone... but since I'm such a small fraction of everyone it might as well be other people). But since I have to deal closely and continually with the repercussions of the former, I tend to concern myself more with them than the latter. To be a strictly 'moral' person by utilitarian standards, I'd have to spend my entire waking life helping to save lives in the most efficient way possible (because for a relatively small sacrifice I could always do just that little bit more that would have a huge impact on someone else's life), whether that meant travelling to starving countries and assisting, or working a high income job that I hate (and then doing more paid work in my 'spare time') so that I could donate everything except the minimum I needed to live to help save lives. I'm not going to do that, because my desire to 'be moral' just isn't absolute. Conversely, I'm not going to live an absolutely selfish life because I do value other people's welfare to some degree.

So the conflict between my self-interested desires is constantly resolving itself into my day-to-day behaviour.

Don't you ever experience conflict between doing something you believe is 'right', and something you just want to do for your own sake?

That's just bizarre... you think you know my own beliefs better than I do? I don't know what to say to that :huh: It reminds me of comments by Christians saying that they know everyone really believes in god, and atheists are just denying it to themselves.

The AntiChris

I think both words can have a whole range of meanings dependent on context, but in one sense I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that one can feel ashamed if one violates one's own moral code.

I'm surprised that you're expressing such incredulity at the possibility that others might not share your version of a personal moral code. It seems to me that according to your version of morality, one could never violate one's own moral code. Have you really never come across the concept of 'failure to live up to one's own standards' before?

Chris

diana

As I read through the responses, I find myself wondering why my point is being missed. So I went back to my OP to see how I stated it, and found the problem. I was unclear. Let me try to reword so what I'm saying is more understandable.

I said:
This does not mean my actions give me my moral code. It means I know what I really believe about given things by observing my actions at any given point. In my original example, I may have thought lying was wrong until I found myself in a situation where lying was in reality the moral action. At that point, it's time to acknowledge my moral code has just been amended. That is, I'm well-advised to acknowledge that lying is not against my code, per se. There are circumstances in which I find it to be the moral choice.

Please note the focus on "continue to do it." This acknowledges that I may do something then realize afterward that I'm not happy with the outcome. I believe I touched on this in a later post with the idea that I may think it's okay to sleep around until I try it and realize people get hurt when I do. At the point I realize I'm not happy with previous decisions I've made, I amend my code. At the point I was sleeping around, my moral code said it was okay. At some point, I rethought my position and changed my behavior accordingly.

My initial focus on continued behavior is what led me to ask how you feel and what you do when you realize you've done something in violation of your moral code. Do you feel guilty yet continue to violate your own code? Or do you feel guilty and cease the behavior? It seems to me that for some, feeling guilty serves as little more than a form of personal penance. I think we feel guilt when we're caught violating someone else's code that we knew about but didn't care enough to follow (such as the speeding example). But it isn't that simple, of course.

Under what circumstances do you feel guilt? Why do you think you feel this way? What do you do about it?

d

diana

Good morning, Jinsky.

I think you're saying your personal moral code is not as pure as the one it's patterned after, as you temper it with practical considerations. It may surprise you to know that your personal code and mine are almost identical.

All I've been trying to say is this: I won't walk past a begging bum on the street then tell you I violated my moral code because I should have given him some money or bought him some food, but didn't. I'll either give the money or own the fact that it didn't violate my code to walk past without helping. My actions are indications of what I truly believe is right or wrong. If I say I believe one thing while my actions say otherwise, I am a hypocrite; it is my words that are wrong.

This misses the point. I'm not any more selfish in my moral code than you. Or any less, it seems. The only difference I can see between you and me is that I have not adopted a "pure" moral system that I am not willing to live up to so I can go through life rationalizing to myself why I'm not living up to it. I believe doing things for my own sake are also "right," so your choice leaves me choosing between something that is right and something else that is right. I merely acknowledge that my own self-interest is an important part of my moral code. I can't get away from thinking how my actions will affect me, and whether I'm willing to live with the consequences.

People see such expressions of "selfishness" as a very negative thing, but I do not. I see selfishness as an innate part of human nature--and it's only bad if it hurts others unnecessarily. For example: if I saw a wrecked car with leaking gas and a baby trapped inside, I'm afraid I'm the sort of "courageous" (i.e., stupid) person who would run over and try to get it out. Why? I couldn't live with the alternative, even though it would have assured my own self-preservation. I couldn't watch the baby die in a ball of flame then live with myself knowing I might have saved that baby but didn't try.

I believe that if you say you believe one thing then do another, your actions give the lie to your words.

The irony here is, I'm attempting to apply common sense to the situation, while you're asking me to take on faith that you really do believe it's wrong to sleep with your neighbor's wife (hypothetically, of course), even though you're (hypothetically) sleeping with her.

d

The AntiChris

The only way this makes sense is if, in your view, "I believe X is wrong" is synonymous with "I don't want to do X". I don't think most people see it this way.

Chris

diana

Greetings, bluexxrayne. What an excellent post. Thank you for joining the discussion.

I concur. Our personal codes are constantly being refined--if we're learning anything as we go along.

Excellent distinction. Thank you very much. Your point that you can feel shame for something you did but not guilt because you didn't know any better yet is well taken.

Why would you knowingly go against your own beliefs, though?

Amen. If the only reason is "because I felt like it," then the action was entirely selfish and most likely for the sake of sheer pleasure (as opposed to reasons like "my family was starving" or "I was lonely").

Do you think you violated your principle or that you discovered your principle had mitigating factors? I don't mean to be presumptuous or rude; please forgive me if I come across that way. It just seems to me that you began the example by listing some of the factors.

I'm on more solid (and less volatile) ground if I use my own experiences instead of using yours. I used to believe I wouldn't be in a relationship if I wasn't in love with my partner. Then I ended up in one for eight years. How did that happen? I was very hurt. He was good to me and loved me very much. It was everything I needed and wanted, except...I wasn't in love with him. I tried to convince myself I was in love with him (logic is worthless in this area). I learned in the course of that relationship that my standards were not quite what I thought they were. There were exceptions to my rule. There were circumstances in which I was willing to be in a relationship when I wasn't in love with my partner, after all. It was a learning experience. Now my rule states that I will, but only under certain mitigating factors; admittedly, the ultimate goal is to be in a relationship without any mitigating factors, but experience teaches us that if life offers you anything, it's mitigating factors. I feel no guilt or shame for that relationship; nor do I feel that I let myself down. It was a reflection of my emotional and psychological needs at the time.

CLARIFICATION: I don't mean to imply that you will ever go back to an abusive relationship. Our moral convictions fluctuate for many reasons, one of which is learning the hard way that something is not for you.

d