Loomis

Are you sure you meant necessitate?

That seems like a really poor word choice. :frown: It looks to me like you have confused the cause and effect. I think you meant, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that Jesus didn't exist as a historical person.

Why didn’t you just say prove?

Read these.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/necessitate

http://www.literacymatters.org/content/text/cause.htm

maryhelena

That's more to my way of seeing things....
Which really means that as long as the historicists keep searching for a historical Jesus of Nazareth - they are on a wild- goose chase.

To be able to equate a historical Jesus, ie the assumption of a historical Jesus, to a specific historical figure would be an impossible task. There is just too much contradictory elements within the gospel Jesus for these contradictory elements ever to have been part and parcel of one historical figure: A cynic sage and an apocalyptic prophet, for instance, are two characteristics that don’t sit well together. They suggest rather that the Jesus storyboard developed over time and incorporated later historical interpretations made by the early Christian community. An inspirational figure usually has ‘followers’ who take things further along – various people start interpreting the sayings of a renowned teacher – and very often add their own twist as well…

If one goes with the idea of an inspirational figure then a cynic sage character, a more benevolent character, is more likely than a fire and brimstone apocalyptic prophet, to be at the grounding of the Jesus myth. Especially so if one wants any early date for Christian origins. End-time scenarios are best viewed as being near the end….start all that 30 or 40 years too early and one could end up being like the person who cried ‘wolf’ just too many times – and when it mattered nobody listened. What apocalyptic that is in the gospel storyline is most probably a later addition and had nothing at all to do with an earlier cynic type – inspirational type – philosophical type, character. Detering referred to an ‘apocalyptic handbill’ – apocalyptic boiler plate – that the gospel of Mark “appropriated and reworked”. Apocalyptic prophets, end-time announcers, are more likely to get people's backs up - nobody likes to hear that their comfort zone is coming to an end! A preacher/teacher of an inspiring message is far more likely to draw people to him and thus to create a community.

Whatever the theological interests of the early Christians, they did, in their mythmaking with the gospel Jesus figure, use that storyboard to accommodate not only an origin story but also a developing story. Sure, there is a prophetic voice, or voices, in that story - but does not Acts refer to the four daughters of Philip that prophesied. And a prophet named Agabus. With an open-ended Jesus storyboard – any relevant later history involving apocalyptic could easily be accommodated without any great upheaval. If one sees the Jesus story itself as being historical – then one could end up missing the boat for early Christian origins - and subsequent developments along the way...

So, bottom line - a mythicist approach to the gospel Jesus storyline has the potential for forward movement within its grasp - and the historicists - well, they are stuck in a cul-de-sac....

sharrock

Re. the book, using Ellegard's words (been a while since I read it) ...

Though the earliest Christians had never experienced Jesus in the flesh, he was by no means unknown to them. They knew Jesus because he was the great prophet and founder of the religious movement that they belonged to, namely a branch of the Essenes, a reform movement of Judaism originating in Judea in the second century BC.

The Essenes continued to regard their founder, whom they called the Teacher of Righteousness, as their great prophet and also as a martyr. They knew, or thought they knew that he had been harassed and eventually put to death by the Jewish priestly hierarchy. To Paul, and the earliest apostles, Jesus, dead for more than 100 years, remains the great interpreter of the 'mysteries' of the Bible. Their visions, of Jesus raised to the heavens and sitting beside God convinced them he had risen from the dead.

A dramatic change occurred in 100 ad, Christians start to focus their attention on the Jesus who had lived amongst men. It is the earthly Jesus who is the main actor in the Gospel story.

The change in focus from a heavenly to an earthly Jesus seems to have been initiated by Ignatius, he asserts that Jesus died when Pontious Pilate was governor of Judea. His choice of Pilate as a reference point may be due to his knowledge that Paul experienced his vision at that time.

The Essnes exhibit similarities with Christianity; their use of the same names for the members of their movement; Church of God, Saints, Elect, Poor the Way. Their beliefs, Messianism etc.

Page 59: Ellegard says this is a theological treatise, its main thrust being to emphasise the importance of complete fidelity to the Church of God. He concludes Hebrews was written before AD 70. The theology of Hebrews defends the theology of the 'New Covenant' based on Jesus Christ, who has sacrificed himself for the salvation of those who put their faith in him. C. Spicq 1972-5 calls it a 'midrash on Psalm 110'. The main feature of the argument is to take up OT passages, which are then interpreted as either aiming at Jesus, or as uttered by him.

I got the book after having seen posts on yahoo's jesus mysteries group. I also see there's a discussion here ...

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...01/green1.html

Loomis

Hey! Thanks! Unfortunately that wasn’t very helpful. If Ellegard doesn’t realize that Hebrews is barrowing Jesus/ Joshua from Zechariah then imho that means he’s kind of clueless.

Look at this:

Zechariah 3:1 LXX
And the Lord showed me Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and the Devil stood on his right hand to resist him.

It describes Jesus as a high priest in heaven who was made sinless by God.

Compare …

Hebrews 4:14
Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.

See?

It’s the same Jesus.

Hebrews 3:1~6 is also pretty explicit as it describes Jesus as the governor of God’s house and the successor to Moses. Compare it with Sirach 46:1 and Zechariah 3:7.

Clivedurdle

and something.

Yup - Homer and Hebrew Bible mining and stories.

Loomis, I was only attempting to establish the first step in the argument.

The next step I suppose depends what is meant by the Gospel Jesus - thinking about it there isn't one - we have several, and more from Paul, Hebrews and Revelation and later evolutions.

I agree one Jesus is a riff on Joshua, others are fascinating, including name above all names, and Emanuel.

Ellegard was not a crank but a professor of history and therefore possibly better credentialled than most.

Clivedurdle

Anyone want to attempt a count of varieties of Jesi? Do we have 57?

Loomis

Not if you ask Luke.

Luke 7:22
Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.

“Jesus” is talking about the Messianic Apocalypse (4Q521).

The heavens and the earth will listen to His Messiah, and none therein will stray from the commandments of the holy ones. Seekers of the Lord, strengthen yourselves in His service! All you hopeful in your heart, will you not find the Lord in this? For the Lord will consider the pious and call the righteous by name. Over the poor His spirit will hover and will renew the faithful with His power. And He will glorify the pious on the throne of the eternal Kingdom. He who liberates the captives, restores sight to the blind, straightens the bent. And forever I will cleave to the hopeful and in His mercy...And the fruit... will not be delayed for anyone. And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been as...For He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead and bring good news to the poor.

Note that it incorporates Psalm 146:6-8 and Isaiah 61:1. But the stuff about reviving the dead can only be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Tabor discusses it here:

Parallels Between A New Dead Sea Scroll Fragment (4Q521) and the Early New Testament Gospel Tradition

The author called Luke was familiar with 4Q521 and used it as a proof text for Jesus’ divinity.

sharrock

To be fair, I think he does realise. He does compare the Didache 16:7 to Zechariah 14:5 and Daniel 7;13. This may be irrelevant with regard to your remarks, I don't know, a lot of this is lost on me .

Ellegard makes, I think, other such comaprisons in the vein you describe ... "The author of Hebrews, trying to explain how Jesus, as a non-levite, could become a priest, he declares that he was 'called of God a high priest after the order of Melchisedek'. The obvious reference is to psalm 110:4: 'The loard has sworn, and will not repent. Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedek' In the psalm, needless to say, there is no reference to the Christ".



.

Loomis

Here is the best case for a historical Jesus:

arnoldo

Or, why would millions of skeptics bother wasting their time on someone who didn't exist.:Cheeky: