Johnny Skeptic

Unfortunately for you, very few people have become Christians based partly upon being impressed with Biblical archaeology. The archaeology that you are talking about is ordinary secular archaeology, the same kinds of ordinary secular archaeology that many cultures left behind. A God who wanted people to believe that he exists could easily telephathically communicate the same messages to everyone in the world, therby discouraging dissent instead of inviting dissent. In addition, a God would easily be able to accurately predict when and where natural disaster would occur, which would discourage dissent instead of inviting dissent.

Consider the following Scriptures that emphasize faith:

John 20:24-29

“But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”

Matthew 14:28-31

“And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water. And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus. But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?”

Matthew 17:20

“And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”

Consider the following Scriptures that emphasive faith AND tangible, firsthand evidence.

Matthew 4:23-25

“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.”

Mark 16:14

“Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.”

Hebrews 11:1

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

The preceding Scriptures emphasize the importance of faith, but strangely, the following Scriptures emphasize the importance of faith AND tangible, firsthand evidence:

Matthew 4:23-25

“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people. And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them. And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.”

John 2:23

“Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.”

John 3:2

“The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.”

John 10:37-38

“If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.”

John 11:43-48

"And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

John 20:30-31

“And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples which are not written in this book. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”

Acts 14:3

“Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.”

1 Corinthians 15:6

“After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.”

It is up to you to explain why Jesus criticized Thomas for wanting tangible, firsthand evidence that he had risen from the dead, but willingly provided tangible, firsthand evidence to many people who were not willing to accept him based upon his words alone, and in one case (John 10:37-38) even instructed some stubborn people that if they were not willing to believe his words, to believe his miracles.

All Bible prophecies are disputable. I wish to distinguish disputable prophecies from false prophecies. A false prophecy is a prophecy that does not come true. A disputable prophecy does not necessarily have to be a false prophecy. Even if all Bible prophecies are true prophecies, they have failed to convince the majority of the people in the world that they are true prophecies. If Pat Robertson accurately predicted when and where a natural disaster would occur, month, day, and year, that would be far less disputable than any Bible prophecy. In my opinion, no prophecies at all would be much better than 100% disputable prophecies because that would mean that God needlessly creates doubt and confusion, which, since the Bible says that God is not the author of confusion, is sufficient evidence that the God of the Bible does not exist.

One thing is for certain: If a God inspired the Bible, there are not any doubts whatsoever that he would be able to convince more people to love him and to accept him without unfairly interfering with their free will. It would certainly not have been unfair for Jesus to accurately predict what the names of the Roman emperors would be for the next 200 years, and their dates of birth and death, which would surely have caused more people to become Christians. That is a reasonable assumption since historically, many people have accepted all kinds of outlandish religions based upon much less convincing evidence than that. In addition, Nostradamus and Edgar Cayce attracted a lot of followers based upon a lot less convincing evidence than that.

Since Jesus made some predictions, Christians cannot get away with claiming that he did not want to use prophecy to try to influence people in future generations.

The best evidence indicates that if a God exists, he is not the God of the Bible. If the universe is naturalistic, or if some other God exists who chose to mimic the ways that things would be if the universe is naturalistic, 1) all religions that have books would be spread entirely by word of mouth, which is the case 2) humans would only able to obtain food through human effort no matter what their worldview is, which is the case, 3) it would not be surprising that the percentage of women who are theists is significantly higher than the percentage of men who are theists in every culture, which is the case, 4) it would not be surprising that the percentage of elderly people who change their worldviews is much smaller than the percentage of younger people who change their worldviews, which is the case, 5) hurricanes would kill people, animals, and plants, and destroy property as if there were not any differences between them, which appears to the case, 6) all tangible benefits would indiscriminately distributed at random according to the laws of physics without any regard for a person's needs, requests, or worldview, and the only benefits that anyone could ask God for and expect to receive would be subjective spiritual/emotional benefits, which appears to be the case, 7) it would not be surprising that fossils and sediments are sorted in ways that are convenient for skeptics, and have convinced some evangelical Christian geologists that a global flood did not occur, which is the case, 8) no religious book would contain any indisputable prophecies, which is the case, and 9) it would not be surprising that 50% of the genome of chimpanzees and humans are identical, which is the case.

Now what kind of God would state that he wants people to believe that he exists, but would go to those extremes to mimic a naturalistic universe, or would choose to mimic some other God who chose to mimic the ways that things would be if the universe is naturalistic, thereby undermining his attempts to try to convince people to believe that he exists?

Under certain conditions, children who grew up as Christians would have been skeptics, and they would have been just as certain of their worldviews as they are now. It is well-known that children often choose the same worldview that their parents chose, and that where a person lives often makes a big difference regarding what they believe. It is not reasonable for anyone to assume that a God who wanted people to believe that he exists would allow what people believe to be determined by chance and circumstance when he could easily telepathically communicate the same messages to everyone in the world.

The best evidence indicates that the God of the Bible does not exist. If a God did inspire the Bible, I would never be willing to accept him unless he answered some questions to my satisfaction. One question that I would ask God would by why he only wants people to hear the Gospel message if another person tells them about it. Another question that I would ask God would be why he only wants people to have enough food to eat if they are able to obtain it through human effort. Possibly most of all, I would like to ask God what fair, worthy, and righteous goals would he not be able to achieve without killing people and animals with hurricanes, and without forcing animals to kill each other.

chrisengland

Don't you think reniaa has a point though.
If the Bible is very accurate in historical events you shorly must give a reason why you dismiss the supernatural bits.
Which means it basicly comes down to what the probability of God existing is I think.
If the probability of God existing is low then you could dismiss the supernatural bits quite rationaly' but if it high then you may be irrational to dismiss them.
Chris

Tars Tarkus

What historical events is the bible very accurate about? The flood? The exodus? The slaughter of the innocents?

reniaa

You want a list?

heres the top ten on a website....

http://biblicalstudies.info/top10/schoville.htm

dead sea scrolls here being the first


And these are just the tip of the iceberg of 100's of verifiable bible related archaeological items. These things exist and continue to exist outside of the bible and using the one or two examples of were archaeology has not produced the goods does not wipe these out.

chrisengland

Didn't that ramsey bloke say Luke was a very good historian?

Tars Tarkus

An interesting list to be sure, but I was asking about events that the bible was very accurate about. As far as names such as Pilate and Caiaphas turning up in archaeology, I would be surprised if the authors of the gospel didn't use actual people and place names.

Amaleq13

You can stop there because it really isn't "very accurate". It is "somewhat" accurate and inconsistently so. That said, no amount of historical accuracy lends credence to claims of magic since it is contrary to everyday experience.

chrisengland

Why is it so impossible something supernatural could happen?

Amaleq13

Not necessarily "impossible" so much as so unlikely that significant and specific evidence is required to establish it as a viable possibility let alone reality.

Toto

Well he would, wouldn't he? Subsequent research has not confirmed this. "Luke" was a good storyteller with access to some historical sources (Josephus, and others that we have lost).