Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sullster · 02-17-2004, 03:22 PM

The first victims of the Catholic Inquisition was a sect called "The Cathars". They were rooted out and many were burned by the "true" followers of christus, the RC Church. This murder and destruction took place during the thirteenth century.

I am interested if anyone knows about the Cathar sect and why the church had to kill them off. I know that Pope JP2 has said,"sorry, sorry , sorry" for the killings of the Cathars, but I will bet he secretly agrees with his predecessor's decision.

MonkeyMan · 02-17-2004, 03:35 PM

Well, they didn't believe in symbols (crucifixes), churches, riches, sex, baptism, communion, popes whatever. In short anything the RCC stood for. Can't have that, can we now, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar

<edit>
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5578/beziers.html

During the Crusade against them, the city of B�ziers was taken and the entire population (+/- 7000) massacred. Here this timeless jewel of catholic logic was spoken by the commander, Count de Montford, when asked how to distinguish the catholics from the cathars/albigensians: "Kill 'em all! God knows his own!"

Jolimont · 02-17-2004, 04:08 PM

I was raised in Toulouse, France where the Cathars thrived long ago. Why were they persecuted? It's been 20 years since I've read any books on the subject, but I think it had to do with heretical beliefs and power. Cathars believed the earth was created by the devil in order to seduce us or torture us. They also believed in a kind of reincarnation whereby each time someone came back as a new person they became more and more perfect, more detached from the evil physical world. The most perfect among them became clergy (could be either male or female I think) and vowed to never carry any weapon of any kind and also took a vow of celibacy. This was the predominent religion in the areas of France now called Languedoc and Midi-Pyr�n�es and they were pretty much all killed off. There are lots of really good museums and landmarks connected to this period of time in the area, well worth a visit if you're into that sort of thing. I read about them a bit as a teen, but they didn't get talked about during my public education, even right there where it all happened. Sad, really.

FireMason · 02-17-2004, 04:26 PM

The Cathars were Gnostic Christians who believed that the god of the Old Testament was evil and responsible for creating the world of matter. Thus the material world was deemed to be evil and shunned.

Also, they did not believe that Christ would sully himself by becoming material and that the crucifixion was therefore faked/untrue.

To cap it all off, being Gnostics, they did not believe in the necessity of any intermediaries between God and Man so the priesthood and the Pope were not only unnecessary but were working for the evil OT god.

You can see why the Catholics (and particularly Pope Innocent III) felt that they were a threat to the established order of the Church. The tried and true method of eliminating threats was used and they were exterminated.
:boohoo:

P.S.

They also believed in the equality of the sexes so they had to be killed obviously.

Some basic information of the Cathars

Jolimont · 02-17-2004, 04:45 PM

Oh, that's right! I had forgotten all about their non belief in Jesus, that alone qualified them for the "b�chet"

02-17-2004, 04:52 PM

Hi Sullster, luckey for me I don't know much about the Cathars but was that not a state ordered quest to get rid of the 'puritans' of those days? If it was I don't see why you would call it a Catholic Inquisition.

Did the Pope actually say "sorry, sorry, sorry" in relation to the killing of the Cathars? or was it just for some evil that the Church may have done in the past.

Doctor X · 02-17-2004, 05:04 PM

A book I enjoyed is Stephen O'Shea's The Perfect Heresy: the Revolutionary Life and Death of the Medieval Cathars.

One problem, though, is that about five important people have the same name--"Raymond"--so it gets a bit confusing!!

He also explains that "Cathar" was an insult from the accused practice of less-than-appropriate attention to cats! Let us just say the when you pet a puss[RIGHT! STOP THAT!--Ed.]

Yes . . . sorry . . . anyways, here is an interesting bit:

Quote:

"Kill them all, God will know his own." The sole catchphrase of the Cathar conflict to be handed down to posterity is attributed to Arnold Amaury, the monk who led the Albigensian [Proper term for Cathar.--Ed.] Crussade. A chronicler reported that Arnold voiced this command outside the Mediterranean trading town of Beziers on July 22, 1209, . . .

Whether Arnold Amaury actually uttered that pitiless order is still a matter for debate. What no one doubts, however, is that the phrase neatly iluustrates the homicidal passions at work during the Albigensian Crusade.

--J.D.

MonkeyMan · 02-17-2004, 05:21 PM

In case somebody's into History AND Literature, one of the inquisitors of Toulouse went by the name of Bernard Gui.

Doesn't ring a bell? It's the same Bernard Gui that makes an appearance in Umberto Eco's "Name of the Rose" as Inquisitor!

This chap really existed, as his view on the Albigensians/Cathars is recorded and can be found at the Medieval Sourcebook.
And, as mentioned in "The Name Of The Rose", he did write "The Inquisitor's Manual".

Cynthia of Syracuse · 02-17-2004, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sullster
The first victims of the Catholic Inquisition was a sect called "The Cathars". They were rooted out and many were burned by the "true" followers of christus, the RC Church. This murder and destruction took place during the thirteenth century.

I am interested if anyone knows about the Cathar sect and why the church had to kill them off. I know that Pope JP2 has said,"sorry, sorry , sorry" for the killings of the Cathars, but I will bet he secretly agrees with his predecessor's decision.

The classic study of Catharism in one locality is
Montaillou, the promised land of error by Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie;

A good recent book on the Cathar persecution is

Yellow cross : the story of the last Cathars, 1290-1329 by Rene� Weis.

I've read both & they are both informative and good reads.

Doctor X · 02-17-2004, 05:56 PM

Here is how O'Shea describes the beliefs of the Cathars:

Quote:

For the Cathars, the world was not the handiwork of a good god. It was wholly the creation of a force of darkness, immanent in all things. Matter was corrupt, therefore irrrelevant to salvation. Little if any attention had to be paid to the elaborate systems set up to bully people into obeying the man with the sharpest sword, the fattest wallet, or the biggest stick of incense. Worldly authority was a fraud, and worldly authority based on some divine sanction, such as the Church cleaimed, was outright hypocrisy.

The god deserving of Cathar worship was a god of light, who ruled the invisible, the ethereal, the spiritual domain; this god, unconcerned with the material, simply didn't care if you got into bed before getting married, had a Jew or Muslim for a friend, treated men and women as equals, or did anything else contrary to the teachings of the medieval Church. It was up to the individual (man or woman) to decide whether he or she was willing to renounce the material for a life of self-denial. If not, one would keep returning to this world--that is, be reincarnated--until ready to embrace a life sufficiently spotless to allow accession, at death, to the same blissful state one had experienced as an angel prior to havig been tempted out of heaven at the beginning of time. To be saved, then, meant becoming a saint. To be damned was to live, again ad again, on this corrupt Earth. Hell was here, not in some horrific afterlife drreamed up by Rome to scare people out of their wits.

To believe in what is called the Two Principles of creation (Evil in the visible, Good in the invisible) is to be a dualist, an adherent to a notion that has been shared by other creeds in the log course of humanity's grappling the unknowable. . . .

Even a cursory description of the Cathar faith gives an idea of how seditious the heresy was. If its tenets were true, the sacraments of the Church necessarily became null and void, for the very good reason that the Church itself was a hoax.

--J.D.

02-17-2004, 03:22 PM	#1
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Cathars. The Catholics killed them off, why? The first victims of the Catholic Inquisition was a sect called "The Cathars". They were rooted out and many were burned by the "true" followers of christus, the RC Church. This murder and destruction took place during the thirteenth century. I am interested if anyone knows about the Cathar sect and why the church had to kill them off. I know that Pope JP2 has said,"sorry, sorry , sorry" for the killings of the Cathars, but I will bet he secretly agrees with his predecessor's decision.

02-17-2004, 04:26 PM	#4
FireMason Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 58	The Cathars were Gnostic Christians who believed that the god of the Old Testament was evil and responsible for creating the world of matter. Thus the material world was deemed to be evil and shunned. Also, they did not believe that Christ would sully himself by becoming material and that the crucifixion was therefore faked/untrue. To cap it all off, being Gnostics, they did not believe in the necessity of any intermediaries between God and Man so the priesthood and the Pope were not only unnecessary but were working for the evil OT god. You can see why the Catholics (and particularly Pope Innocent III) felt that they were a threat to the established order of the Church. The tried and true method of eliminating threats was used and they were exterminated. :boohoo: P.S. They also believed in the equality of the sexes so they had to be killed obviously.Some basic information of the Cathars

02-17-2004, 04:52 PM	#6
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Cathars. The Catholics killed them off, why? Hi Sullster, luckey for me I don't know much about the Cathars but was that not a state ordered quest to get rid of the 'puritans' of those days? If it was I don't see why you would call it a Catholic Inquisition. Did the Pope actually say "sorry, sorry, sorry" in relation to the killing of the Cathars? or was it just for some evil that the Church may have done in the past.

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02-17-2004, 03:35 PM	#2
MonkeyMan Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 3rd rock from Sol, CH Posts: 88	Well, they didn't believe in symbols (crucifixes), churches, riches, sex, baptism, communion, popes whatever. In short anything the RCC stood for. Can't have that, can we now, eh? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathar <edit> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/5578/beziers.html During the Crusade against them, the city of B�ziers was taken and the entire population (+/- 7000) massacred. Here this timeless jewel of catholic logic was spoken by the commander, Count de Montford, when asked how to distinguish the catholics from the cathars/albigensians: "Kill 'em all! God knows his own!"

02-17-2004, 04:08 PM	#3
Jolimont Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USA expat, now living in France Posts: 1,153	I was raised in Toulouse, France where the Cathars thrived long ago. Why were they persecuted? It's been 20 years since I've read any books on the subject, but I think it had to do with heretical beliefs and power. Cathars believed the earth was created by the devil in order to seduce us or torture us. They also believed in a kind of reincarnation whereby each time someone came back as a new person they became more and more perfect, more detached from the evil physical world. The most perfect among them became clergy (could be either male or female I think) and vowed to never carry any weapon of any kind and also took a vow of celibacy. This was the predominent religion in the areas of France now called Languedoc and Midi-Pyr�n�es and they were pretty much all killed off. There are lots of really good museums and landmarks connected to this period of time in the area, well worth a visit if you're into that sort of thing. I read about them a bit as a teen, but they didn't get talked about during my public education, even right there where it all happened. Sad, really.

02-17-2004, 04:45 PM	#5
Jolimont Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USA expat, now living in France Posts: 1,153	Oh, that's right! I had forgotten all about their non belief in Jesus, that alone qualified them for the "b�chet"

02-17-2004, 05:21 PM	#8
MonkeyMan Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 3rd rock from Sol, CH Posts: 88	In case somebody's into History AND Literature, one of the inquisitors of Toulouse went by the name of Bernard Gui. Doesn't ring a bell? It's the same Bernard Gui that makes an appearance in Umberto Eco's "Name of the Rose" as Inquisitor! This chap really existed, as his view on the Albigensians/Cathars is recorded and can be found at the Medieval Sourcebook. And, as mentioned in "The Name Of The Rose", he did write "The Inquisitor's Manual".

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