aa5874

But, a Church historian did NOT claim Ebion was a leader. The Ebionites got their name from the "poverty of their understanding".

"Church History" 3.27.6 And again this is in "Against Celsus" 2.1 Ebion was not the name of a leader of the Ebionites.

But, those groups in the DSS which identified themselves as "the poor" did not identify a character called Jesus.

stephan huller

AA,

Epiphanius identified Ebion as the head of the Ebionites. The DSS show that a group could identify itself with this Aramaic name. The point has nothing to do with Jesus.

stephan huller

Well how do you know that? Faith? Belief? There surely was some kind of apocalyptic community which held some of the beliefs ascribed to Christian sects in the writings of Irenaeus in the first century CE. In other words, Philo witnesses the kabbalistic beliefs of the Marcosians (i.e. the loss of a letter of the alphabet) was connected with some bizarre apocalyptic doctrine. There are other examples too. Why isn't that proof that there were heretical Christians in the first century? Why does this always become a question about whether ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY existed in the early period? I think the argument for so-called 'gnostics' in the first century is quite compelling.

stephan huller

Where did you get this kooky idea? BET? Spike Lee? I used to have a girlfriend who was black who used to hang a modern black Jesus icon above her bed. It would drive me crazy. Eventually I couldn't take it any more.

Augustine lived in Africa but was not racially African.

Iskander

I quite like the idea of Augustine being a Black African.
Europe seems to have enough bastards without him.

Davka

The Gospel of Matthew certainly comes across as Jewish, as does the Gospel of John. Both are clearly Hellenized, but strike me as Jewish because of their concern for Jewish doctrine.

There is a series in the process of being written, titled "Jewish Believers in Jesus," which is afaik the first serious attempt to write a historical account of Jewish Christians from antiquity until today. The first volume, The Early Centuries (or via: amazon.co.uk), was published in 2007.

Although the book is written from a Christian perspective (i.e. it accepts the NT books at face value), it is useful in that it also deals with Jewish Gospels outside of the New Testament (Gospel of the Nazoreans, G. of the Ebionites, G. of the Hebrews, and others). It attempts a true scholarly reconstruction of early Christianity while it was still a primarily Jewish religion. According to Jewish Believers, there are fragments of Jewish Christian literature quoted in some writings by Greek and Latin Church Fathers, such as Eusebius and Justin Martyr.

I recommend this book if you really want to read an in-depth study of Jewish Christians in the early church. Not only is it approached from an academic perspective (as opposed to some of the slap-dash crap you'll find at most Christin bookstores), but the editors, Reidar Hvalvik and Oskar Skarsaune, are pretty neat people for a couple of Norwegian eggheads. (Full disclosure - I know both Reidar and Oskar personally, which is why I know about this book).

stephan huller

Yes I also like the idea of Augustine walking around the Empire as Flava Flav. It would be quite amusing having a large clock hanging around his neck greeting people in a peculiar American accent. A pity it's not true. It would make for great TV ...

stephan huller

Nothing has come down to us directly from these 'Jewish Christians.' The best surviving source about what they believed (best because it was preserved by non-Europeans) is 'Abd Al Jabbar's The Establishment of Proofs for the Prophethood of Our Master Mohammed

http://www.essene.com/Bible/ArabicTr...anOrigins.html

steve_bnk

I did not say Negro, dark skinned Afrcan ancestry is not neccessarily sub Saharan 'Negro' as we would image today.

If you go by Christian images, Christ was tall, white skinned, blonde haired and blue eyed. I spent 12 years in RCC schools, it wasn't until I took philosopsohy of religion in college I learned he was African.

Take your pick of images.
http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Saint-..._i1350549_.htm

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/sta02001.htm

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CBsQ9QEwAQ

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...ed=0CB8Q9QEwAw

Berbers.

http://www.danheller.com/images/Afri...g14.html#img18

http://www.danheller.com/images/Afri...g17.html#img19
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souk_Ahras

'..It was the birthplace of Augustine of Hippo.[4] The city was mentioned by Pliny the Elder. As a municipium, Thagaste was not settled by Italian immigrants and was inhabited by Romanized Berbers.[5]//'

aa5874

I showed you that Church writers did not claim Ebion was a leader of the Ebionites by making reference to "Church History" and "Against Celsus".

It must be obvious that Epiphanius may be in ERROR.

"Church History" 3.27.6
"Against Celsus" 2.1
So it was circulated among the Church that Ebionites got their name from the name given to a poor man up to the 4th century.