Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sheshbazzar · 10-14-2011, 04:33 PM

I thought it did a good job of illustrating his point..... As well as being down right hilarious.
We are all big kids now. No need pretend that we don't realize that there are people who think and communicate in this fashion_
I have some in my own family_ sometimes they make me chuckle, or even laugh my ass off

Toto · 10-14-2011, 04:40 PM

There are some serious issues here - but Stephan is usually emphasizing the anti-sexual, castration oriented aspects of early Christianity. So what was it? The church is the bride of Christ, or eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven?

Sheshbazzar · 10-14-2011, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

There are some serious issues here - but Stephan is usually emphasizing the anti-sexual, castration oriented aspects of early Christianity. So what was it? The church is the bride of Christ, or eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven?

Profound question.

stephan huller · 10-14-2011, 04:52 PM

The two are related. Look at Islam with its sexual repression and promise of reward in the hereafter. I actually know a lot of Muslims and when they tell me about their sexual misadventures while married its quite funny. One said they have to have sex in the dark and it 'can't be for pleasure.' Which seems a contradiction doesn't it. But in reality it is all a part of the paradigm started by the ascetic traditions. The reason sexual truth is so powerful is that it resists even our best efforts to control it. The other end of the spectrum is Oscar Wilde's quote the best way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it.

The underlying problem is desire. The difficulty is at the heart of the monotheistic tradition. Yet it took northern Europeans to demonstrate that a sterile state was possible. The religion of the southern climates is all about liberation from the passions. In staid northern Europe that state = the death of the passions almost came second nature (probably because of the cold weather). It's difficult to get an erection when your balls are freezing I guess. But this is where Christianity eventually emerges as something completely alienated from its original Mediterranean roots.

Toto · 10-14-2011, 05:02 PM

Perhaps this book would explain it all:

The Manly Eunuch: Masculinity, Gender Ambiguity, and Christian Ideology in Late Antiquity (or via: amazon.co.uk) (The Chicago Series on Sexuality, History, and Society)

Quote:

The question of masculinity formed a key part of the intellectual life of late antiquity and was crucial to the development of Christian society. This idea is at the heart of Mathew Kuefler's new book, which revisits the Roman Empire during the third and fifth centuries of the common era. Kuefler argues that the collapse of the Roman army, an increasingly autocratic government, and growing restrictions on the traditional rights of men within marriage and sexuality all led to an endemic crisis in masculinity: men of Roman aristocracy, who had always felt themselves to be soldiers, statesmen, and the heads of households, became, by their own definition, unmanly.

The cultural and demographic success of Christianity during this epoch lay in the ability of its leaders to recognize and respond to this crisis. Drawing on the tradition of gender ambiguity in early Christian teachings, which included Jesus's exhortation that his followers "make themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven," Christian writers and thinkers crafted a new masculine ideal, one that took advantage of the changing social realities in Rome, inverted the Roman model of manliness, and helped solidify Christian ideology by reinstating the masculinity of its adherents.

Or perhaps not. It's mostly about the late empire.

Christian ascetics had the same view of food, or at least meat, as they did of sex.

Sheshbazzar · 10-14-2011, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Christian ascetics had the same view of food, or at least meat, as they did of sex.

I had one grandfather that was a real fruitcake that way. And always trying to force it upon the rest of our family...Oh,The looney tales I could tell.....

stephan huller · 10-14-2011, 06:28 PM

One could well make the case that religion isn't even about God as much as it is about the membrum virile. Ever since earliest civilization down to Jacob wrestling with God to Jesus and Muhammad.

Sheshbazzar · 10-14-2011, 06:39 PM

Looking back at my old gramps, there is little doubt that in that situation it was all about domination and control over the thoughts, actions, and diet of others.
(Gob knows what weird sexual hoops my old man may have first had to jump through to receive his blessing. There was definitely some wrestling going on there.)
The family situation was so oppressive and fucked up that I ran away from home at eight years of age and never returned, my six siblings were all soon taken away by the state. Found two of them- fifty years latter.

Sorry, know this thread is not about me, but I do have some experience with the results of 'fundy' religion. And real reasons to hate it with a passion.

.

stephan huller · 10-14-2011, 06:45 PM

Sorry to hear that. I know people who grew up in environments like that. It must have been difficult.

Sheshbazzar · 10-14-2011, 07:07 PM

Insane. And although I escaped that situation, I never could escape the impact of those first few years. So here I am.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-14-2011, 04:33 PM	#11
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	I thought it did a good job of illustrating his point..... As well as being down right hilarious. We are all big kids now. No need pretend that we don't realize that there are people who think and communicate in this fashion_ I have some in my own family_ sometimes they make me chuckle, or even laugh my ass off

10-14-2011, 04:40 PM	#12
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	There are some serious issues here - but Stephan is usually emphasizing the anti-sexual, castration oriented aspects of early Christianity. So what was it? The church is the bride of Christ, or eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven?

10-14-2011, 04:52 PM	#14
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The two are related. Look at Islam with its sexual repression and promise of reward in the hereafter. I actually know a lot of Muslims and when they tell me about their sexual misadventures while married its quite funny. One said they have to have sex in the dark and it 'can't be for pleasure.' Which seems a contradiction doesn't it. But in reality it is all a part of the paradigm started by the ascetic traditions. The reason sexual truth is so powerful is that it resists even our best efforts to control it. The other end of the spectrum is Oscar Wilde's quote the best way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it. The underlying problem is desire. The difficulty is at the heart of the monotheistic tradition. Yet it took northern Europeans to demonstrate that a sterile state was possible. The religion of the southern climates is all about liberation from the passions. In staid northern Europe that state = the death of the passions almost came second nature (probably because of the cold weather). It's difficult to get an erection when your balls are freezing I guess. But this is where Christianity eventually emerges as something completely alienated from its original Mediterranean roots.

10-14-2011, 06:28 PM	#17
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	One could well make the case that religion isn't even about God as much as it is about the membrum virile. Ever since earliest civilization down to Jacob wrestling with God to Jesus and Muhammad.

10-14-2011, 06:39 PM	#18
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Looking back at my old gramps, there is little doubt that in that situation it was all about domination and control over the thoughts, actions, and diet of others. (Gob knows what weird sexual hoops my old man may have first had to jump through to receive his blessing. There was definitely some wrestling going on there.) The family situation was so oppressive and fucked up that I ran away from home at eight years of age and never returned, my six siblings were all soon taken away by the state. Found two of them- fifty years latter. Sorry, know this thread is not about me, but I do have some experience with the results of 'fundy' religion. And real reasons to hate it with a passion. .

10-14-2011, 06:45 PM	#19
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Sorry to hear that. I know people who grew up in environments like that. It must have been difficult.

10-14-2011, 07:07 PM	#20
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Insane. And although I escaped that situation, I never could escape the impact of those first few years. So here I am.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.