sotto voce

Why was there a cult of Jesus?

ApostateAbe

Jesus founded the cult by portraying himself as a prophet, a source of divine knowledge, which is typical for cults. The Christian cult survived for a combination of things going in its favor. The arguments connecting Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 to Jesus were compelling to the gentiles. No other cult had that. The carrot and stick of heaven and hell were also very strong forces. The point that the cult was rooted in an ancient scriptural religion was very powerful. I think those were the biggest causes of Christianity's sustenance, though certainly not all the causes.

aa5874

Your statement is wholly wrong. There is NO evidence of any mention of Jesus of Nazareth at all in any dated source of antiquity befre c 70 CE.

The Pauline writings do NOT mention that Jesus was from Nazareth and they are dated to the 2nd century or later.

aa5874

Again, you have ZERO evidence that there was a Jesus cult in the 1st century. In the earliest Jesus story, the Jesus character did NOT start any new religion under the name of Christ.

In the short-ending gMark,

1. Jesus did NOT want the Jews to be converted.

2. Jesus was Unknown as Christ to his own disciples until Peter said so.

3. Jesus Commanded that his disciples tell NO ONE he was Christ.

4. The disciples of Jesus asked others NOT to use the name Christ.

5. If they were Christians in the time of Pilate they would NOT be followers of Jesus in gMark.

There is a very SIGNIFICANT passage in the short-ending gMark which makes it clear that if there were Christians in the time of Pilate that they would NOT be followers of Jesus but of another person who used the name CHRIST.

Mark 9 There was some other person who was called CHRIST in gMark at the very time Jesus forbade his own disciples NOT to tell anyone he was CHRIST.

If there were Christians in gMark they would NOT be followers of Jesus but of another person who used the name CHRIST.

Now, ApostateAbe, please tell us when gMark was written and when the Pauline writings were composed???

You have ZERO evidence of any character called Jesus of Nazareth in the 1st century before c 70 CE.

Grog

What do you mean by "not close enough"? What can you say about the apocalyptic preacher that you have uncovered in the Gospels that makes him "not close enough" to Jesus Ananias?

I've noticed this before. Jesus of Nazareth must have been some apocalyptic preacher, but not THAT one. Why not? I would say for the same reason that it is difficult to let go of the idea of the HJ: Jesus Ananias does not serve modern notions and needs for a noble martyr.

Adam

Jesus ben Ananias shows no similarity to the source Passion Narrative found in gJohn, listed word-by-word in my Post #243 in

Falling Dominoes

Regarding the OP, only Q2 (including parallel interpolations in gMark, and followed in gMatthew) portrays Jesus as predicting the end of the world. The apocalyptiicism in the Synoptics can otherwise be regarded as pertaining to the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE.

aa5874

You have IDENTIFIED the Problem with the HJ argument. It is baseless.

HJers argue that their Jesus of Nazareth was an OBSCURE Apocalytic preacherman and attempt to use the works of Josephus to support their claim.

But they argue that it is Jesus the Christ the brother of James that is Their OBSCURE Apocalyptic preacherman in Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1.

An examination of AJ 20.9.1 does NOT show anything about an Obscure Apocalyptic preacherman from Nazareth--Nothing--Zero.


Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 HJers cannot be serious. They are NOT engaged in a rational discussion. The HJ argument is propaganda without a shred of logics.

The 8 word phrase "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ" does NOT explain or Nor describe an Obscure Apocalyptic preacherman.

If the Jesus in Antiquities 20.9.1 was actually called Christ, the Anointed One, by the Jews then he could NOT have been an Obscure preacherman.

Now, in Wars of the Jews 6.5,3 we have a 450 word story about Jesus the Son of Ananus an Apocalyptic character who was OBSCURE, a Loner that predicted some kind of Calamity in Jerusalem and was brought before Jewish authorities and beaten and then was put before the Roman governor who had him beaten again but said NOT a word.

To any reasonable person, except HJers, the Jesus of Wars of the Jews 6.5.3 is far more similar to an Obscure preacherman than Jesus called Christ in Antiquities 20.9.1.

The HJ argument is NOT making much sense at this time.

sotto voce

Isaiah 53:12 has it that 'he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors'. This to Israelites would indicate sinlessness, and therefore superiority over John, whose role was also reckoned to have been foretold as the fore-runner of Jesus (as noted by the author of Matthew's gospel), in Malachi, and also in Isaiah:

'A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.' Isa 40:3 NIV

ApostateAbe

Jesus of Nazareth was crucified, killed and resurrected, but Jesus ben Ananias was tortured, released, and killed by a missile. Jesus of Nazareth had twelve disciples and Jesus ben Ananias had zero. Jesus of Nazareth was regarded as a blasphemer and Jesus ben Ananias was regarded as a mad man. Jesus of Nazareth made prophecies concerning the messiah, and Jesus ben Ananias did not. Jesus of Nazareth allegedly founded a religion, and Jesus ben Ananias did not. Jesus of Nazareth allegedly lived around 30 CE, and Jesus ben Ananias allegedly lived around 70 CE.

Grog

Yes, if the HJ is "Jesus of Nazareth" who died and then came alive again, I would agree that Jesus ben Ananias and "Jesus of Nazareth" are not the same person. That point would be conceded. However, I have, following much of modern critical scholarship, rejected the idea that Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. How do you know that JBA had no disciples? We only have a slightly negative account written by a contemporary, possibly eyewitness, to the events that are reported. Do you suppose that Josephus went out and mingled with crowd and counted the followers of JBA? That he would have thought to do that? Obviously, the author of gMark engaged in poetic license and used the number 12 for theological reasons. There is no reason to assume the HJ had 12 disciples.

Wouldn't it be possible for a disinterested observer as Josephus would have been, slightly on the negative side, to view such a blasphemer as a mad man? Let me give you an example: I often go with my family to our local Farmer's Market on Saturday. Every Saturday there is a man who rides his bike around the square shouting something I think about banks and coming economic collapse...something to that affect. Nearly everyone ignores him, even I do, though I can sympathize with his message. I would guess that everyone would call him a "mad man" or some modern equivalent. However, I don't know anything about this person, he could very well have followers, people who heed his message. And, I guarantee, if the State came out dragged him to the middle of the square and flogged him because of the disturbance he made, he would quickly become viewed as a martyr for the cause. Add that that: if he then died from a stray police bullet...?

How do you know? According to the gMark, he did (if one accepts the hypothesis). Why would you assume that Josephus would know everything that JBA said? If Josephus recorded what he saw, he probably would not have been aware of what Jesus ben Ananias said to his disciples after Temple visiting hours had closed. IF he heard stories, he probably heard them from Roman officials, or Jewish officials, and in either case, it would have been along the lines of "this crazy guy keeps coming around upsetting everybody at Tabernacles." "What does he say...?" "I don't know, he just keeps yelling about four winds and whatnot."

Josephus knows only one aspect of the life of Jesus ben Ananias and that is only what occurred in the temple at Tabernacles. I would presume that there was more to this character than that.

(of course, I am only offering an solution for floundering HJers...I don't hold to it myself.)

I am arguing that he did found one. I already offered a "reason" for why the author of gMark would backdate his Jesus story: he feared persecution. This works for HJers on all kinds of levels, not sure why it wouldn't work here.