andrewcriddle

If (as is IMO probable) more Gentile Christians died in the Roman persecution than did Jewish Christians then although the proportional impact on the Jewish population in Rome would have been much greater than the impact on the Gentile population in Rome, it would have been controversial to regard what happened as anti-Jewish per se. Josephus is writing the Jewish War partly to show that hostility between Jews and Romans is unnecessary.

To claim that to be anti-Christian is inevitably to be anti-Jewish may not have helped his case. (I do think in general you are tending to minimize the degree to which the Jewish War is propaganda as well as history)



Paul letter's seem to make clear that there was a quite substantial Christian population in Jerusalem in the 50's CE for which he was collecting alms.

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan

Yes, that's what Lampe says. He seems to think that actually most Christians in Rome at that time weren't Jews. His only real evidence for that is Paul's letter to the Romans. That's thin evidence indeed. His other evidence indicates that Jews and Christians must have been very close. For example, they came basically from the same quarter(s) of the city.

Vorkosigan

andrewcriddle

On the point of Josephus not mentioning any persecution in Rome by Nero; I've been looking at Josephus again.

In Jewish Wars which certainly covers the relevant period there is far less about Roman affairs than in the Antiquities. (There's more of everything in Antiquities but proportionately the increase in things outside of Palestine is particularly great.) For the period of overlap of Wars and Antiquities compare for example the accounts of Caligula in Rome the account in Antiquities is massively enlarged.

The concentration on affairs in Palestine in Jewish Wars is so strong that I don't think that we can conclude anything much from the absence of references to things happening outside Palestine unless these events have a very direct impact on Palestine.

In Antiquities on the other hand there is much more attempt to relate things in Palestine to the wider context but this hardly extends beyond 64 CE.
The last bit of non-Palestinian history in Antiquities is the decision of Nero to send Gessius Florus to Judea in 64, we then have a brief account of how in the next two years the crimes of Gessius Florus led to the outbreak of the rebellion and the Antiquities then ends.

So I don't think we can deduce much from the silence of Wars because Wars is so focused on Palestine and the silence of Antiquities would be expected because the persecution came too late to be mentioned.

Andrew Criddle

Vorkosigan

But according to Life Josephus was in Rome, where he met Poppea:

"3. But when I was in the twenty-sixth year of my age, it happened that I took a voyage to Rome, and this on the occasion which I shall now describe. At the time when Felix was procurator of Judea there were certain priests of my acquaintance, and very excellent persons they were, whom on a small and trifling occasion he had put into bonds, and sent to Rome to plead their cause before Caesar. These I was desirous to procure deliverance for, and that especially because I was informed that they were not unmindful of piety towards God, even under their afflictions, but supported themselves with figs and nuts. (4) Accordingly I came to Rome, though it were through a great number of hazards by sea; for as our ship was drowned in the Adriatic Sea, we that were in it, being about six hundred in number, (5) swam for our lives all the night; when, upon the first appearance of the day, and upon our sight of a ship of Cyrene, I and some others, eighty in all, by God's providence, prevented the rest, and were taken up into the other ship. And when I had thus escaped, and was come to Dieearchia, which the Italians call Puteoli, I became acquainted with Aliturius, an actor of plays, and much beloved by Nero, but a Jew by birth; and through his interest became known to Poppea, Caesar's wife, and took care, as soon as possible, to entreat her to procure that the priests might be set at liberty. And when, besides this favor, I had obtained many presents from Poppea, I returned home again."

Now Josephus was in Rome at about this time, around 63 and maybe into 64. He knows Nero's wife. You have a solid point in that both Antiquities and Wars turn from Rome at about this time to focus on Palestine. But both continue to 70, and whenever you date this persecution, it occurred during the time Josephus was writing, involving people he allegedly had personal connections to. And above all, it must have involved many Jews. Note that in the above passage Josephus goes to Rome to discuss the fate of a few priests with Nero. How much more the torture and and burning of Jews in Rome itself?

rlogan

One has to be somewhat of a contortionist in excusing Christians escaping notice at all, and at the same time lending credence to the general outline of the gospels and the myths generated in the second century.

andrewcriddle

I agree that Josephus was probably in Rome in 64 His comments in chapter 4 of the life that when he returned to Judea 'innovations were already begun' ie things were building up towards the revolt, implies IMO that Gessius Florus has already taken office which occurred sometime in 64.

Hence Josephus probably left Rome towards the end of the good sailing period in 64 after the middle of the year but well before the end. (Having been shipwrecked on his journey to Rome I doubt if he would have taken risks returning.)

Now the fire of Rome occurred towards the end of July roughly when Josephus IMO left Rome. He may well have been in Italy when the fire happened or may have left very shortly before.

However unless reprisals against Christians started very quickly after the fire Josephus would have already left Italy. From his account once he reached Judea in late 64 the problems there preoccupied him to the exclusion of matters in Rome.

Andrew Criddle

rlogan

Iron laws of history authorship:

1) If the author was busy at the time of the event, said event will not be recorded. Ever.

2) If the author was not physically at the location of the event, said event will not be recorded. Ever.

andrewcriddle

What I was primarily responding to was Vorkosigan's interesting suggestion that if reprisals against Christians genuinely occurred in Rome following the Great Fire then Josephus might well have been involved at the time in using his influence in trying to protect Roman Jews from persecution.

I was suggesting that the precise dates make this unlikely.

Andrew Criddle

andrewcriddle

Actually Antiquities comes to a full stop in 66 twelth year of Nero second of Gessius Florus (apart from saying that the Wars say what happened next)

Andrew Criddle

the_cave

Possibly because they did not call themselves that yet--or at least, not in Palestine. Perhaps they didn't think of themselves as separate from any of the other sects. Perhaps the population of Christ-believers in Palestine was miniscule.