elevator

If the universe was never created (as in eternal) then the concept of time may be eternal too. If the universe works along with M-theory then time is still valid in the other branes that existed prior to our own and will continue to exist in other branes after ours come to an end. I am not sure were you are going with this; but if you are asserting that God is timeless, well, yes agree, because something uncaused doesn't need an anchor in time, because there is no event to time. But the same would hold true for an uncaused universe.

ohmi

Yes, but the problems are:-

-1.- the unreality of time - despite the 'use' of our common [Newtonian] idea of time, it cannot be re-ordered into a consistent notion [ e.g. Hawking "imaginary time may be more real than real time] .
Godel showed that there is time travel in theory, but we have no way to resolve the paradoxes inherent in that
more recently the problem is being considered of rejecting the traditional idea of time as a basis in Physics and looking for a more sound foundation without all the contradictions associated with time.

-2.- the fact that time as we know it is concurrent with irreversible destruction [increase in chaos, entropic doom] which simply cannot go on endlessly [except in the case of meaningless sameness when there is nothing left but heat energy at a single low temperature]
If time is universal ['multiversal'] then everything , including God , becomes meaningless useless heat energy eventually. [and there is no spirit, no immortality, no eternal God, no meaning to love or life, etc]

George S

Take heart, ohmi, because you won't have to worry about the heat death of the universe. Dark Energy to the rescue. (Or maybe there is not only a gravity brane but a DE brane, woohoo. And, once we postulate 3 branes, what is their geometry. See Warped Passages.)

I note the confluence and probable connection to you of [spirit, immorality, eternal God] and [meaning].

I have encountered this attitude from time to time. The thing is that I hesitate to ask the single question that would clarify how that complex equivalence is not necessary. If it is only the hope of a joyous immortality that gives meaning then it seems wise to hesitate to take that away. In fact, if there is a God-of-Salvation (who preserves all consciousness in all the universe when their body (or equivalent) expires) and that GoS is into Forgiveness then... Thou Art Saved.

With this attitude, you lose a bit, of course. The rules. This GoS makes no rules. No need: All are Saved. No in-group. No out-group.

The GoS is not the source of morality. So we humans must develop our own. Humanism works.

ohmi

We are used to assuming that what we sense is 'real' because it is all we have ... yet ,when we dream or have hallucinations, we accept these as unreal when we 'come out of them' ... but there simply is no basis to assume that what we see as our physical reality is not some 'dream'/ 'hallucination'/'illusion'/ 'imagination' by God ...philosophers have recognised the possibility for ages , one cannot discount it ... and it is a powerful consistent theory , explaining away for instance the trouble many have with God's 'creation' of evil , and the problem some see of God's controlling this world whilst being wholly separate from it and outside time [and thus changeless]

The evidence for me is four-fold:
-1.- I 'remember' where I came from at first consciousness, and my sole desire was and is to get back to that wholeness where there is no conflict, no lack of control, no separation into individuals and world ... presumably all people could be helped to recognose their memories at first conciousness and so discover that they came from God, as spirit, not from their bodies.

-2.- All people want to Love and be Loved, it is our deepest desire and is identified as such in Psychlogy , but bizarrely we do not actually do this that we want so much to do [unlike all other animals] ... it makes a nonsense of physical theories of life , yet its cause is discussed at length in scripture ... No other 'theory' than the God of scripture [NOT the god images of religions] can explain this .

-3.- Life is wholly meaningless without God , atheists find themselves either inventing notions of Love [humanism, etc] which never satisfy them completely [since they cannot do them any more than religionists can stop sinning] or just try to live in emptiness [like Sartre tried, ever look in his eyes?]

-4.- The scripture ,for all the faults of modern translation copies, is awesomely complex literature [far beyond human playwrights to construct] and very obviously written by hosts of sincere men with a common theme spread throughout the ages ... it is not a fake since it condemns religious dogma of all 'sinner christians'[oxymoron] and Jews ,so was not constructed by them as some claim...

ohmi

I don't worry about heat death, I simply included its notion for completeness in that discussion ... I never took it seriously simply because it would be so meaningless.

But if time could in any way be turned into a consistent notion AND if it were 'multiversal' , existing everywhere in every 'universe' , then there would be a problem that its inherent irreversibility would make it either finite [the multiverse would end?] or the multiverse too would be condemned to entropic doom [no matter the hidden matter in our apparent universe]

[QUOTE]
I note the confluence and probable connection to you of [spirit, immorality, eternal God] and [meaning].

I think you misunderstand , it is not a religious idea, it is simply that we directly sense that life is not meaningless [despite the meaningless things people do in this world] ,which experience negates the possibility of time being ubiquitous in the multiverse ... and now even some physicists abandomn the idea itself of time , because it cannot be made consistent... It has nothing whatever to do with vain desires for instant painless immortality because so many religionists are afraid of death.

It is obvious perhaps that without time that there can be no consciousness in the spirit, let alone that one can hardly be conscious in death. You are conflating religion with what scripture says , and they are very different, distinct.

But you are mistaken, very few are redeemed to spirit before death , a few more at Jesus' return, many later after resurrection of all sinners, and the rest after a second death frees them yet again from their unloving ways... all are saved, but not all at the same time and not all with the same experiences , not all suffering at the same times.

Humanisms are as diverse as religions, which ought to be anathema to atheists [who hate subjectivity in beliefs and inconsistencies in all other realms than morality] .

But humanists sadly cannot escape inconsistency, hypocrisy and unlovingness any more than religionists can avoid them , that perhaps is one of the great unacknowledged proofs of God that is [in principle] available to us now.

elevator

You're right, but if you take that stance, how can we know that anything is real? Including God and the material universe in which we live?

1. I do not "remember" my first consciousness and even if I did could I in any way use that to deduct the existence of a divine force or how the universe came to be.

2. The origin of love, morality and altruism in an evolutionary context have already been argued, so I am not going to start that now. But if displays of love, moral actions and altruism are paramount to keep groups of individuals in a coherent group; then yes, those actions becomes entirely natural. All humans (including many higher intelligence animal species) are capable of these actions so it's existence may simply be the result of a combination of large brains (capable of such reasoning) and a social pattern that promotes (or even demands) such moral behavior.

3. The assertion that life is meaningless before God is absolutely ridiculous. I find fantastic meaning in life. I am in awe as to the grandeur of the universe. I marvel at the beauty of having a loving family and children and at the beauty of nature around me. I am humbled by the short blink of time our lives are and find meaning in making the most out of this time. Again, please read philosophy on the subject and you will find that meaning is found in life with or without God.

4. It is complex because of the shear volume of it. Vedic prose has just as much literary complex to it. The great masters such as Dante or Shakespeare previously mentioned do too. I can't help to think that either you have not read the work of these masters or else you have read the bible with a sincere bias or preconception that its literary genius are superior to that of any other book. In which cause it is useless for us to argue past simply asserting that we disagree on the issue.

At that concludes my participation in this discussion for a few days. Going on a well earned vacation with the family!

ohmi

I am not sure why you ask, since you agree that we cannot know . But interestingly perhasps, the scripture asserts that a few people will know, and have known, in this life , some few of these never even seeing death.

There are ways people can be caused to remember the past... memory is censored by the self... knowing the wholeness of being and one's greatest desire to return to that being by means of perfecting 'realisation' of one's inbuilt desire to Love , removing all conflict , is surely direct evidence of the God which Jesus talked about , the God of scripture [not the 'idols' of religion]

Desperate rationalisations of people in denial that go nowhere near explaining the Love within our hearts and the conflict we learn in the world that hides it.

I am not sure why you think marveling or beauty have meaning , but I suppose beggars can't be choosers

As for one's family, there is hardly any meaning in propagation itself .

As for the lovingness, it does have meaning because it is what one can know of God at this time , but one does not have to use the word 'god' for it [since it upsets atheists to do so] , rather understand that it is that which one respects most [hence in fact one's 'god' in that sense of the word]

The scripture includes modes of expression interwoven with extreme complexity not seen in any other prose [not even those you mention], but I can hardly prove that here... like many things in life ,one ,for now, sees very much only what one wants to see, until moved to look more closely... beliefs cause selective vision , and inhibit intuition/inspiration until exposed for their limitations.

Gawen

This thread touched on more than several topics that could have been posted in respective fora. It is being moved here and kept open for those that still wish to discuss it.
Have at it. Keep it civil...:thumbs:

elevator

I agree. We cannot know. But you have claimed all this time that you do know - or at least that you know better than anyone else - that your interpretation of scripture is somehow superior to anyone else's. I have said that there is no evidence except personal experience and personal interpretation of scripture. As far as the biblical text is concerned - I still maintain that it is ambiguous and most likely the works of mortal hands. As far the "existence of God"-question, I still maintain my agnostic stance. This brings up back to the very first few posts in this thread.

There are people who are "caused" to remember alien abductions. There are people in all religious and cultural traditions that remember things that they claim to be of supernatural origins. Can you see that we live in a world were prophets, mediums, abductees, fortune tellers, and all kinds of people who claim to be in touch with the supernatural are quite commonplace? Should I lend credence to your claims simply because you have a 2000 year old text that, if, according to you, is interpreted correctly, can be used as a compass for life? Curiously, many other ancient religious texts, allegedly, exhibit the same properties.

Sorry, I just can't agree. Love is not an exclusive religious concept.

What is meaning for you? Living your life believing in a supernatural entity that may or may not be real? No thanks. I don't know whether or not there is a God, but I certainly find more meaning in love and devotion for my family, my friends and the people I surround myself with. I find more meaning in the awe that I feel when I realize our place in the universe and the beauty of it. I find more meaning knowing that our time is measured and as such must be treated with reverence, respect and great care. So yes, I might not love God, but if it turns out that God actually exists I can certainly say that I have exhibited all due love, respect and reverence for his creation. Has it also crossed your mind that these people you call "sinner-Christians" find meaning in the same text as you. Has it occurred to you that members of all religious traditions find similar meanings in their respective philosophies? Why must the biblical scripture claim monopoly on the meaning of life? Isn't the meaning our our lives an individual endeavor? Must we long for a life after this to find meaning in this life; or is that simply wishful thinking and fear in the face of inevitable death?

You have not really shown examples of this, with the exception of explaining how to translate the metaphorical version of "chaff" into its literary format. Are you talking about things like the bible code? Look at what your book has been used for ohmi. Yes, yes, I know, they are sinner Christians, they understand it wrong, if they only read it correctly, and all that. But that doesn't change history; your book is a literary train crash, full of ambiguity, contradictions and incoherency. The problem is not really that it is a book or even a bad book; there are many similar books; but the difference is that this book claim to be of divine origin or divine inspiration.

ohmi

A life of helpful lovingness would serve every person better than endless bullying by those who feel mistakenly that they were put here to judge others and act to disrupt communications without even discussion ...