Freethought & Rationalism Archive

John Kesler · 11-01-2006, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesa Mike

The Canaanites and Amorites were just a lovely, innocent bunch of people minding their own business, eh?

What does it say about the alleged omniscience and wisdom of Yahweh for him to order the extermination of the Canaanites, only to replace them with a people who, by the Bible's own account, were just as wicked?

Quote:

2 Kings 17:
...the people of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, who had brought them up out of the land of Egypt from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. They had worshiped other gods 8 and walked in the customs of the nations whom the LORD drove out before the people of Israel, and in the customs that the kings of Israel had introduced. 9 The people of Israel secretly did things that were not right against the LORD their God. They built for themselves high places at all their towns, from watchtower to fortified city; 10 they set up for themselves pillars and sacred poles on every high hill and under every green tree; 11 there they made offerings on all the high places, as the nations did whom the LORD carried away before them. They did wicked things, provoking the LORD to anger; 12 they served idols, of which the LORD had said to them, "You shall not do this." 13 Yet the LORD warned Israel and Judah by every prophet and every seer, saying, "Turn from your evil ways and keep my commandments and my statutes, in accordance with all the law that I commanded your ancestors and that I sent to you by my servants the prophets." 14 They would not listen but were stubborn, as their ancestors had been, who did not believe in the LORD their God. 15 They despised his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their ancestors, and the warnings that he gave them. They went after false idols and became false; they followed the nations that were around them, concerning whom the LORD had commanded them that they should not do as they did. 16 They rejected all the commandments of the LORD their God and made for themselves cast images of two calves; they made a sacred pole, worshiped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. 17 They made their sons and their daughters pass through fire; they used divination and augury; and they sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking him to anger.

Quote:

Deuteronomy 9:
6 Know, then, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to occupy because of your righteousness; for you are a stubborn people. 7 Remember and do not forget how you provoked the LORD your God to wrath in the wilderness; you have been rebellious against the LORD from the day you came out of the land of Egypt until you came to this place.
8 Even at Horeb you provoked the LORD to wrath, and the LORD was so angry with you that he was ready to destroy you. 9 When I went up the mountain to receive the stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant that the LORD made with you, I remained on the mountain forty days and forty nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water. 10 And the LORD gave me the two stone tablets written with the finger of God; on them were all the words that the LORD had spoken to you at the mountain out of the fire on the day of the assembly. 11 At the end of forty days and forty nights the LORD gave me the two stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant. 12 Then the LORD said to me, "Get up, go down quickly from here, for your people whom you have brought from Egypt have acted corruptly. They have been quick to turn from the way that I commanded them; they have cast an image for themselves." 13 Furthermore the LORD said to me, "I have seen that this people is indeed a stubborn people. 14 Let me alone that I may destroy them and blot out their name from under heaven; and I will make of you a nation mightier and more numerous than they."
15 So I turned and went down from the mountain, while the mountain was ablaze; the two tablets of the covenant were in my two hands. 16 Then I saw that you had indeed sinned against the LORD your God, by casting for yourselves an image of a calf; you had been quick to turn from the way that the LORD had commanded you. 17 So I took hold of the two tablets and flung them from my two hands, smashing them before your eyes. 18 Then I lay prostrate before the LORD as before, forty days and forty nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water, because of all the sin you had committed, provoking the LORD by doing what was evil in his sight. 19 For I was afraid that the anger that the LORD bore against you was so fierce that he would destroy you. But the LORD listened to me that time also. 20 The LORD was so angry with Aaron that he was ready to destroy him, but I interceded also on behalf of Aaron at that same time. 21 Then I took the sinful thing you had made, the calf, and burned it with fire and crushed it, grinding it thoroughly, until it was reduced to dust; and I threw the dust of it into the stream that runs down the mountain.
22 At Taberah also, and at Massah, and at Kibroth-hattaavah, you provoked the LORD to wrath. 23 And when the LORD sent you from Kadesh-barnea, saying, "Go up and occupy the land that I have given you," you rebelled against the command of the LORD your God, neither trusting him nor obeying him. 24 You have been rebellious against the LORD as long as he has known you.

Gawen · 11-01-2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesa Mike

The Canaanites and Amorites were just a lovely, innocent bunch of people minding their own business, eh?

So were God's chosen:
Exodus 13:2
the Lord said "Consecrate to me every first-born that opens the womb among Israelites, both man and beast, for it belongs to me."

Leviticus 27:28-29:
"Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death."

Judges 11:29-40 Jephthah Burns His Daughter (although she is most likely not a child, she is a virgin)

1 Kings 13:1-2 Josiah executes the pagan priests on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. (Not children, but pagans)

Wisdom 3:5-7
"Chastised a little, they shall be greatly blessed, because God tried them and found them worthy of himself. As gold in the furnace, he proved them, and as sacrificial offerings he took them to himself. In the time of their visitation they shall shine, and shall dart about as sparks through stubble;..."

Wisdom 14:21-23 This passage condemns human sacrifice but acknowledges that it did happen by early God worshipers.

There's a great deal more of God's loving explained in the bible.

lpetrich · 11-01-2006, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesa Mike

The Canaanites and Amorites were just a lovely, innocent bunch of people minding their own business, eh?

But what did they ever do to deserve some "Final Solution of the Canaanite Question," as it might be called?

Yes, what Deuteronomy 7 commands for the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites can only be called genocide.

Jack the Bodiless · 11-02-2006, 03:47 AM

As Gawen pointed out, the Hebrews formerly sacrificed their own children to YHWH. And, lest there be any doubt about this, Ezekiel confirms that it happened:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 20:25-26

I gave them statutes that were not good, and ordinances wherein they should not live; and I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through [the fire] all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am Jehovah.

Mesa Mike · 11-02-2006, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lpetrich

But what did they ever do to deserve some "Final Solution of the Canaanite Question," as it might be called?

These people were exceedingly wicked, even by ancient near east standards.
Google is your friend.

Mesa Mike · 11-02-2006, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gawen

So were God's chosen:

What version of the Bible do you quote from?
It seems to be quite different than any I've seen before.

But at any rate, none of the verses you've quoted indicate that God has commanded ritualistic human sacrifice.

Mesa Mike · 11-02-2006, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

As Gawen pointed out, the Hebrews formerly sacrificed their own children to YHWH. And, lest there be any doubt about this, Ezekiel confirms that it happened:

Certainly the Hebrews at times fell away into paganism, even sacrificing their children. But God did not commnd them to do so, nor did they sacrifice their children to Him (YHWH), but to the pagan idols.

Quote:

Ez. 20:23-26 (The Message)
'But I did lift my hand in solemn oath there in the desert, and swore that I would scatter them all over the world, disperse them every which way because they didn't keep my laws nor live by my statutes. They desecrated my Sabbaths and remained addicted to the no-god idols of their parents. Since they were determined to live bad lives, I myself gave them statutes that could not produce goodness and laws that did not produce life. I abandoned them. Filthy in the gutter, they perversely sacrificed their firstborn children in the fire. The very horror should have shocked them into recognizing that I am God.'

JEST2ASK · 11-02-2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesa Mike

What version of the Bible do you quote from?
It seems to be quite different than any I've seen before.

But at any rate, none of the verses you've quoted indicate that God has commanded ritualistic human sacrifice.

What do you think happened to all those set aside in terms of spoils / captives etc ... for example King Agag, 1 - Samuel 15:32-33 what do your resources say ...
what is your take on Jephthah's sacrifice Judges 11: 34-39*, in particular how his god and the people regarded it ....

John Kesler · 11-02-2006, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesa Mike

What version of the Bible do you quote from?
It seems to be quite different than any I've seen before.

Gawen quoted from the New American Bible. As you seem so fond of telling others, "Google is your friend."

Jack the Bodiless · 11-02-2006, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesa Mike

These people were exceedingly wicked, even by ancient near east standards.
Google is your friend.

What do you imagine Google will tell us, other than "a whole bunch of Christians with web pages think that these people were exceedingly wicked"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesa Mike

But at any rate, none of the verses you've quoted indicate that God has commanded ritualistic human sacrifice.

Exodus 13:2 and Leviticus 27:28-29 indicate that God commanded the dedication of every firstborn child to him, and that those so dedicated were to be put to death.

Of course, there's also the sacrifice of the 32 virgins in Numbers 31 (unless you're suggesting that Moses was acting without God's authority), but at least they weren't infants (presumably).

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