spin

Others devised them. (Did Socrates say the things that are found in the play "The Clouds"? Did Athena say the things attributed to her in the Iliad?)


spin

Steve Weiss

As a former history teacher I can confidently say that history is very problematic and that the further back one goes, the less reliable the data. Once one goes back more than 200 years, myth starts to overtake reality. Go back 2000 years and one is in the realm of fiction.

gurugeorge

Yes of course both you and mountainman are correct, and that's the position I take myself in my own investigations - I was just enmeshed in my response to JustSteve and was talking to him in his own terms.

mountainman

There are inscriptions, coins, architecture, art, murals, sculpture, mosaics, relics, and other archaeological evidence to be brought into the historical narrative. Fortunately, the manuscripts and texts are not islands.


Hereticism as a reasonable position on the HJ

Another very reasonable position one may adopt on the Historical Jesus, is not agnosticism, but hereticism. ie: Jesus and the christian cult was invented and the fabrication of the "universal christian church history" (for which we can find no corroborating evidence for outside of Eusebius) is a common fiction. Hereticism appears to have been a widely held and very contraversial position shared by many in the 4th century.

The motto for the 21st century heretic and infidel who finds Jesus best assessed to be ahistorical fictional, can be adequately borrowed from any of the five sophisms of Arius of Alexandria. For example .... "He was made from nothing existing".

spin

So Julius Caesar, Augustus, Vespasian, Hadrian are in the realm of fiction?

As a former nothing special I can confidently say that hyperbole is problematic and the more it is used the less that is said.


spin

jgoodguy

1 Is there evidence for a HJ?
Yes
2. Is it good evidence?
No
3. Is it good enough for informed speculation?
Yes

Steve Weiss

It is true that there are artifacts that can be used to give some direction to historical investigation, however, artwork is notoriously inaccurate in giving a reliable picture. Nearly every painting of Jesus varies in major details from bearded to clean-shaven, having a halo or not, long hair or short, etc., but that is only logical since Jesus is a myth in the first place. In fact, there are no accurate paintings of what Sir Isaac Newton looked like, and that was only about 400 years ago. Paintings of historical people like Napoleon only 200 years ago were often idealised and overly flattering for obvious reasons. So, everything available to investigators has to be taken with handfuls of salt. I also have to smile when people claim to have found the tomb of Jesus because of forged inscriptions on a stone sarcophagus. Wasn't Jesus supposed to have been bodily resurrected and ascended into heaven? If so, what would there be left to bury?

Steve Weiss

Separating fact from fiction is nearly impossible in ancient history. Certain very basic observations can be made that are highly likely, but as to the entire fabric of history being something that one can have confidence in, that is without support.

For example, "Did FDR know of the attack on Pearl Harbor before it happened. Conspiracy theorists insist yes, while most other observers say no. Did a space ship land in Rozwell, New Mexico in 1947, or was it a weather balloon. Was there a second assassin in Dallas in 1963 when JFK was killed? Was the recent financial crisis the result of an uncontrolled banking and financial sector, or was it the result of government policy of forced lending to the uncreditworthy?

There are tons of records tha can be studied concerning recent events, but precious few for antiquity. All that one can say about ancient history is that it is educated guesswork, and anything more is giving credit where it isn't due.

mountainman

What evidence?
Be specific.

Doug Shaver

All else being equal? It wouldn't change my mind about Jesus' historicity, but I can see it costing me some plausibility points.