Solo

Yes. ......Now the bigger question: where did Paul get that from, a good Pharisee that he was and this was Occult in his time (only later respectable Talmud) ?

Jiri

Niall Armstrong

If you read what I posted, you might have seen that I touch the issue of the dating of the work, and the value it has in the argument.
Everyone agrees that the text is multilayered, and that the versions we have now probably got their last elements added on in the 2nd century. Doherty argues that this later HJ layer is a mere fig-leaf covering an originally MJ document. Remove the rather obvious additions, and we get a document that may have served MJ-Christians as a "gospel" at an earlier stage.

Dating tAoI is, as Early Chr Writings states, difficult. I do not see why the range of 150-200 is given. Perhaps you can elucidate?

Malachi151

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...h_followup.htm

Solo

Definitely not there. Try here for Jewish mystical origins of the "body of Christ".

Jiri

gnosis92

Interesting. I'm something of on the fence with respect to Christian mysticism as I do not believe God exists, and Christian mysticism is about uniting with GOd.

I'm fan though of Christian mystical literature from Emily Dickenson and William Blake, to Emerson and Donne.

I've never heard of Dubai or "hekalot"

Solo

God is just a word. Find another one if it scares you. The other option is of course stopping harrassing the THING. If it finds you, there will be trouble. You might squeak through but there ain't no guarantee. Once you drink from the Rock and it starts following you,....you will be praying to God to rid you of God (like Meister E.).

Here are a few anti-theses to Blake. Threw in some of my "God as Papa Pa Radox" sayings.

See if those solve anything for you:

* A fool who persists in his folly is a persistent fool. A fool who understands his folly is wise.

* If the doors perception are cleansed and you see the world as it is,...better hang on to the doorhandle.

* The road of excess may well lead to the ravine of frustration; there is no beaten path to the palace of wisdom

* The rat, the mouse, the fox and the rabbet stand once again aligned...and, frankly now, worried about the state of my head.

* Honesty is the timid sister of Sincerity, Charity the guilty sister of Generosity; Ambition makes a poor bedfellow to any of them.

* Shame in Pride's cloke meet Rage disguis'd as Charm

* The Matador versus the Bull: the power of inspiration versus the will to power.

* When one thought fills immensity it is time to take a nap.

----

* I see God’s hand in everything; it’s an expert hand which is so skillful that it does not have to do anything. Its mere presence makes things create and fix themselves.

* We are all stations on God's radio, saying what he tells us, bearing witness to his wicked sense of humour, and baffled at times by his taste in music.

* When a poor man speaks of God, there will be holes in the roof of his house. When a rich man speaks of God it is for his roofing business. When a theologian speaks of God, he is talking over his head.

* If God does not exist, then our mind is either fooled or filled by vacuum.

* Trying to convince an atheist there is God is no more useful exercise than singing la Traviatta to the tone-deaf.

Jiri

gnosis92

Interesting quotes, did you orginate them?

aS FOR "God", I could substitute "daydreams" or "fantasy wish" for "God"
Studying the sciences and engineering involves acquiring knowledge that is verifiable, whereas studying mystical New-Age hocus-pocus is not something I'm sure I want to invest in though Elaine Pagels does package it good.

Incidentally what is Interrior castle about and why do you say "he answer to that is as unlikely as finding a room for a skeptic in Theresa Avila's El Castillo Interior" is it anti-rational thought?

Solo

You can read the Castle here . I cannot promise you will get a kick out of Teresa's inner compensation for the Carmelite extremely strict monastic rule of prayer, contemplation and self denial (the sisters and brothers were "discalced" -forbidden to ever wear shoes). But if you want to go through some of it, my quip will become quickly explained.

Mysticism does not imply irrationality. True mysticism complements rationality. The greatest mystical poet the world has known (I believe), Jelaludin Rumi , was a judge, a community leader and family man. Not what you would think the first 'whirling dervish' would do be during working hours. There is no way to approach mysticism rationally, remember ?...'do not let your left hand know what the right is doing'. Read 'brain' instead of 'hand', 'rationality' instead of 'left', and 'creative insight' instead of 'right'. What Thomas' Jesus talks about is a technique of self-hypnosis. When you get into the trance, you drink water and it has the effect of wine.

Did you check Rumi's quotes on the site ?

Jiri

gnosis92

Hi,
Well I did read the intro I probably won't read the book unless I find a well-staffed book club that happens to read it -- I've not found anyone in my real life who has read the GOT or Elaine Pagel's The Gnostic Gospels. While I have met plenty of Mormons who have read the Book of Mormons (and Muslims who have read teh Koran) these books are so deadly dull and boring.
I did read Paul Coelho's The Alchemist and enjoyed it immensely.

There's a New Church that is within driving distance of where I lived. I did visit it a couple of times and they were reading Emmanuel Swedenborg's discussion of angels, except that I don't believe in angels. Swedenborg, the quotes I have seen, is a far superior writer to Joseph Smith.

Still, would you mind sharing with me how did you personally benefit from that book of Castle interior? I've seen that the newage Deepak Chopra is promoting Rumi, which alone is almost enough to cause me to back off. Which Rumi quote did you have in mind? I'll take a look at it. The New Age movement is mystical, and it is the arch-enemy of science and rational thought. Perhaps Xianity and Islamic fundamentalism are as well.


If you're an agnostic or atheist, how does the study of mystical literature benefit you?

Solo

Hi gnosis,
don't know Paul Coelho but it seems clear that you are looking more for both, group support, and your own sense of what is going on. One rational mystic of the late Renaissance that you might want to try is Pico della Mirandola - an amazing character - needless to say he had the Inquisition chasing him half way through Europe. There is an essay by him called "Three relations", in which he says that man's relation to God is an inner dialogue that is too fractious for public discourse and has not much to add to the other two relations that define us socially, men to men, and men to nature.

You mention Blake, as one of the mystics you like. He was into angels big time. AMOF, Gilchrist reported that as a ten year old he told his father he saw angels sitting in a tree. His dad gave him a beating for telling lies.

Here is one of my favorite passages. Teresa, struggles to express how her joy "in God" differs from a purely mundane kind of happiness. Even though I would not use the same words and imagery I know what she is saying. Ever since I was little I would suddenly get a rush, at a thought, at a signt, during a piece of music, an inexplicable orgasmic feeling that overpowers me, fills me and voids me at the same time. I am covered in goose pimples.

It seems to me that the feelings which come to us from Divine things are as purely natural as these, except that their source is nobler, although these worldly joys are in no way bad. To put it briefly, worldly joys have their source in our own nature and end in God, whereas spiritual consolations have their source in God, but we experience them in a natural way and enjoy them as much as we enjoy those I have already mentioned, and indeed much more. Oh, Jesus! How I wish I could make myself clear about this! For I think I can see a very marked difference between these two things and yet I am not clever enough to make my meaning plain: may the Lord explain it for me!
I have just remembered a verse which we say at the end of the last psalm at Prime. The last words of the verse are 'Cum dilatasti cor meum'. (Psalm 119:32, "when you enlarge my heart")


Same way as eating benefits you when you are not hungry.

Jiri