Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mageth · 02-23-2004, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by IAsimisI
The body is the word and the blood is the spirit.

I find it amusing how atheists interpret The Bible as litrealy or even more literaly than the "mindless and brainwashed" Christians.

Hey - blame those theists over at the Vatican for that, not us atheists.

Evoken · 02-23-2004, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Hey - blame those theists over at the Vatican for that, not us atheists.

Sorry if I sounded like I was blaming the atheist or anything, it was not my intention.

I agree that its is the fundamental theist who should be blamed they have bastardized Christianity.

NOGO · 02-23-2004, 05:58 PM

The place where you find the explanation of the bread from heaven is in John 6

John 6:51
"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh."

This is what Jesus said in public.

Naturally people think that the "I" is the man speaking.

Not so. Jesus explains what he means to his disciples in this way.

John 6
59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

NOGO · 02-23-2004, 06:11 PM

Quote:

IAsimiI
And what is God�s will? It is the law given to Moses, it was to be crucified to release us from the wrong of original sin that entered the world when Adam ate from the tree, that is why the veil was teared in half, to give us a personal full access to God thru Jesus�s sacrifice.

Can you justify this.

Paul does not equate the Law with the sacrificed Jesus.
On the contrary in 2 Cor 3 Paul compares the old covemant with the new. One being written and therefore not living compared with the new faith which lived in every believer.

When was the law sacrificed?

just saw the light · 02-23-2004, 06:16 PM

Went to church (Catholic) a couple weeks ago cause the girlfriend dragged me there. Found the bread and wine to be the only good reason to go. The bread isn't half bad and church gets a lot more tolerable after a gigantic gulp of wine!

Evoken · 02-23-2004, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO
Can you justify this.

Paul does not equate the Law with the sacrificed Jesus.
On the contrary in 2 Cor 3 Paul compares the old covemant with the new. One being written and therefore not living compared with the new faith which lived in every believer.

When was the law sacrificed?

Read the following passage:

Jeremiah 31

32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them, "
declares the LORD .
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD .
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD ,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD .
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."

The new covenant is the law written in our minds thus the previous covenant (the written law) was crucified in order to forgive our sins and to bring us closer to God.

SLD · 02-23-2004, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fried beef sandwich
SLD, that's fascinating. What sort of books/references did you read to learn this info?

Well, I honestly learned a lot from this message board and various articles in the library. Here's the Cicero quote and more from the library:

Quote:

We find one pagan writer who had intelligence enough to ridicule this senseless ceremonial custom, called "the sacrament." Cicero, some forty years before Christ, shows up the doctrine of the sacrament, or substantiation, in its true light. He asks, "How can a man be so stupid as to imagine that which he eats to be a God?" A writer quoted above says, "Mass, or the sacrifice of bread and wine, was common to many ancient nations." (Anac. vol. ii. p. 62.) According to Alnetonae, the ancient Brahmins had a kind of Eucharist called "prajadam." And the same writer informs us that the ancient Peruvians, "after sacrificing a lamb, mingled his blood with flour, and distributed it among the people." Writers on Grecian mythology relate that Ceres, the goddess of corn, gave her flesh to eat, and that Bacchus, the God of wine, gave blood to drink. Nor is there any evidence that Christ and his followers made a better use, or different use, or a more spiritual application of the sacrament, or ceremonial offering of bread and wine, than the pagans did, though some have claimed this. It was a species of symbolism with both, notwithstanding Mr. Glover, a Christian writer, declares, that "in the sacrament of the altar are the natural body and blood of Christ, verily and indeed." (See Glover's Remarks on Bishop Marsh's Compendious Review.) It may be noted here that the Persians, Pythagoreans, Essenes and Gnostics used water instead of wine, and that this mode of practice was less objectionable than that of the Christians, who (as sad experience proves) have too often laid the foundation for the ruin of some poor unsuspecting devotee, by luring him to the fatal fascination of the intoxicating bowl, by holding the sacred and ceremonial wine to his lips, while administering the sacrament or the Lord's supper.

As to books, check out Hyamm Maccoby's "The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity." Also, A. N. Wilson's biography of "Paul - The Mind of the Apostle". Wilson's biography is a fascinating read of Ancient history and life and struggles in the first century Roman Empire.

SLD

SLD · 02-23-2004, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by just saw the light
Went to church (Catholic) a couple weeks ago cause the girlfriend dragged me there. Found the bread and wine to be the only good reason to go. The bread isn't half bad and church gets a lot more tolerable after a gigantic gulp of wine!

What kind of wine do they use? A good Cabernet or Merlot, or cheap crap such as Ripple? You'd think they'd spend some bucks for the blood of Jesus, right?

SLD

SLD · 02-23-2004, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by archpaladin

The fact that such practices were in place before the coming of Jesus could add another reason as to why Jesus used the metaphor of eating his body. People who were familiar with those practices would realize that Jesus was claiming to be able to take the place of their gods.

I think you are grasping at straws here. Why would the "real" God copy pagan mystery cult gods? At best it is confusing, and at worst it causes people to say that this is nothing more than another mystery cult so to hell with it. It sounds as if Jesus isn't really interested in converting people, but in fact turning them off. He sure turned me off with that one.

There is also so much more that links Jesus to mystery cult religions - from virgin birth to resurrection to Eucharist to saving the sinner on the road to Damascus. In the end, it wasn't one thing that caused me to reject Christianity - it was an amalgam of so many things such as this that seals its fate.

As another example, take the famous passage in Acts (twice in the KJV, only once in other versions, and most likely the original) where Jesus complains to Paul that it hurts when he kicks against the goads. The line is almost a direct line out of Euripides play The Bacchae written 400 years before. In The Bacchae, the tormentor of Bachus's followers is blinded on the road going to the city to persecute the followers. In that play too wine is consumed as symbolic of the God's blood. Again, why would the "real" God sow confusion by quoting a fictitious God in a very similar setting from a play written 400 years prior to that? Not only that, but the line would have been as familiar to 1st Century audiences as lines from Shakespeare are to today's audiences. At best confusing, but more than likely an obvious rip off of earlier gods.

SLD

Toto · 02-23-2004, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SLD
Well, I honestly learned a lot from this message board and various articles in the library. Here's the Cicero quote and more from the library:

. . . [/B]

Oh no, not Kersey Graves. Didn't you read the disclaimer at the top? I hope there is a better source for this.

The Eucharist cites this as De Natura Deorum 3:16:41

Any Latin scholars?

De Natura Deorum III

This is a summary in Engish of Book III and the quote seems to be:

Quote:

And suppose we let pass also the divinity of the heavenly bodies; to consider eatable things as gods is an evident absurdity; and how gods can be made out of men is quite inconceivable

This could be a reference to a Eucharist-like meal. But there are better sources for connecting the Eucharist to pagan mystery meals, among them Justin Martyr.

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02-23-2004, 05:58 PM	#33
NOGO Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 1,562	The place where you find the explanation of the bread from heaven is in John 6 John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." This is what Jesus said in public. Naturally people think that the "I" is the man speaking. Not so. Jesus explains what he means to his disciples in this way. John 6 59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum. 60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble? 62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

02-23-2004, 06:16 PM	#35
just saw the light Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: upper midwest Posts: 166	Went to church (Catholic) a couple weeks ago cause the girlfriend dragged me there. Found the bread and wine to be the only good reason to go. The bread isn't half bad and church gets a lot more tolerable after a gigantic gulp of wine!

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