countjulian

The point of Paul and the Epistle writers, if I read them right, is that the over-all moral precepts of the Law are still in full force, but the prescriptions relating to ceromony and Jewish life are null and void for gentiles. That's why they look warmly upon the ten commandments and like to say that "The sum of the law is love thy neighbour as thyself" but don't require circumcision or kosher dieting of their listeners.

And BTW, a much more vehement condemnation of homosexuality, including a death penalty, can be found in the New Testament, Romans 1:18-32

noah

Man you don't get it do you Sheshbazaar. You're still trying to universalize a very particular and isolated exemption from, or lapse in, the Law; an exemption you say God granted Moses, and make it apply to Christians. On what authority? You've created an entire theology out of one little episiode in the desert concerning one mitzvah. Mila is just a mitzva, one of 613. Not even enough to lose a place in Olam haBa.

This is like arguing that "I don't have to stop at red lights because I saw the cops run red lights " What kind of logic is that?


A few more points bear mentioning here:

First, that exemption was time limited. It applied specifically to Moses and his people. It does not apply to Christians. You have no verse or chapter to prove it does. God did not grant Christians an exemption from the Law. You just think he did. One very particular (and irrelevant) exception does not make a rule.

Second, If you're saying that circumcision is not really required, then your argument falls short because the children were eventually circumcised and the Law was upheld just the same.

Third, your argument is juvenile. You're saying that if Moses can suspend or disobey the Law then "so can I". You were not given the dispensation you say Moses was.

Fourth, Baptism is not the path to salvation. The commandments are.

Here's god's formula for salvation:

Ezek 18:20-22,27
Any mention of salvation through baptism or faith in a human blood sacrifice?

How about Revelations 22:14
Jesus said if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments

Here's JC again in the Semon on the Mount where he gives his formula for salvation Any mention of baptism or faith in JC as a human blood sacrifice in these words Sheshbazaar? :

Mathew 5:19-20These are JC's words Sheshbazaar. Not yours. Not Paul's. These words are god's. Why do you deny them?

God does not take kindly to those who disobey the Law Sheshbazaar:

Psa 50:16-17
The Psalmist was also quite clear regarding people (like Paul) who attempt to steer the faithful away from the Law.
Such people are called "wicked" and "evildoers".

Psa 119:110-115
So tell me when you're actually going to discuss any of the verses and passages I have mentioned Sheshbazaar? You started out citing Paul. That didn't work. You then moved to some ridiculous episode in Acts. That didn't work. Now here you are in the desert with Moses trying to create a theology out of a minor and temporary exception to the Law.

Do you deny the words of JC and his Father Yahweh? Are you in truth a Paulinian? Sure looks like you are.

BTW I'm not a xian or Jew or anything else. My interest is the Bible. I like calling BS when I see it.

tdcanam

It would seem most people do not realize the purpose? of the old testament. (and by the way, the OT is not done away with, it has just been fulfilled by One some call Jesus according to the bible)

The story goes, God created the universe and earth with it. He creates a man and a woman, (or the story is an analogy, I don't really care), and tells them to be fruitful and fill the earth. He then gives them dominion over the earth and all that dwells on and surrounds it and steps back saying, "Go nut's, it's yours". Then they screw up.

All that happens from the time they screw up and get the boot from the "garden" up untill the crucifixion/resurrection of Jesus is man being "redeemed" to the place that Adam and Eve had in the garden in the first place so they can have dominion over their world/garden again. God pulls together a people; they become the "Jewish" nation and the liniage through which God's "Son" will come through. God's "Son" is supposed to provide the sacrifice through which mankind CAN be restored (given dominion agin), to their original "state" in the "garden of Eden".

The time between the Garden of Eden story and Jesus is considered the "Old Testament".

The OT is strictly a span of time in which "God" could bring forth a liniage that the "Christ" could be ushered in through.

All the rules that applied to OT people were based on the pretense that humans no longer had dominion of the earth and "God" and/or "Lucifer" was in charge.

That is why the rules seem to differ from OT to NT (New Testament).

Prester John

Uncircumcised in the heart and lips! How bizzare, you wanna chuck some chapters and verses on that or is it just your personal interpretation?

I'll go back to lurking now.

Sheshbazzar

My reply in post # 9 above was addressed specifically to fromdownunder alias "bornagainaussie", also known as "Norm"
If the reply to Norm had been addressed to you noah, I would have stated so, and would certainly have worded it differently.
But as for circumcision, Mila being; Perhaps you need to review again ALL of what The Law has to say regarding this mitzva, as I previously quoted it all, and it is still standing, I'll not repeat it again in this post, but rather move on to quoting what The Law has to say about keeping ALL of The Law.
I'll start with this one;
"And Moshe came and told the people all the words of YHWH, and all of the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said,
ALL the words which YHWH hath said we will do."
(Shemoth/Exodus. 24:3 and 24:7-8)

"You shall DO My judgments, and keep Mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am YHWH your Elohim.
You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments: which if a man shall DO, he shall live in them: I am YHWH." (Vaiqura/Leviticus 18:4-5)

"You shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall you diminish from it, that you may keep the commandments of YHWH your Elohim which I command you." (Devarim/Deuteronomy 4:2)

"Hear , O Israel, the statutes and judgment which I speak in your ears this day, that you may learn them, and keep, and DO them." (Devarim/Deuteronomy 5:1)

"You shall walk in ALL the ways which YHWH your Elohim has commanded you, that you may live" (Devarim/Deuteronomy 5:33)

"And it shall be our righteousness IF we observe to DO ALL of these commandments before YHWH our Elohim as He has commanded us." (Devarim/Deuteronomy 6:25)

"You shall therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command you this day, to DO them." (Devarim/Deuteronomy 7:11)

"ALL the commandments which I command you this day shall you observe to DO them" (Devarim/Deuteronomy 8:1)

"And now, Israel what does YHWH thy Elohim require of you, but to fear YHWH thy Elohim, to walk in ALL of His ways, and to love Him, and to serve YHWH thy Elohim with ALL o of your heart and with ALL of your soul, To keep the commandments of YHWH, and His statutes which I command you this day for your good". (Devarim/Deuteronomy 10:12-13)

"Therefore shall you keep ALL the commandments which I command you this day," (Devarim/Deuteronomy 11:8)

"Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse:
A blessing if you obey the commandments of YHWH your Elohim which I command you this day;
And a curse if you will not obey the commandments of YHWH your Elohim, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day," (Devarim/Deuteronomy 11:26-27)

"And you shall then observe to DO ALL the statutes and ordinances which I set before you this day." (Devarim/Deuteronomy 11:32)

"What thing soever I command you, observe to DO it: You shall NOT add thereto, nor diminish from it" (Devarim/Deuteronomy 12:32)

"This day YHWH thy Elohim has commanded you to DO these statutes and judgments: you shall therefore KEEP and DO them with ALL of your heart, and with ALL of your soul.
You have acknowledged YHWH this day to be your Elohim, and to walk in His ways, and to KEEP His statutes, and His commandments, and His judgments, and to hearken to His voice;
And YHWH has acknowledged you this day to be His peculiar people, as He has promised you, and that you should KEEP His commandments;" (Devarim/Deuteronomy 26:16-18)

"And Moshe with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, KEEP ALL the commandments which I command you this day" (Devarim/ Deuteronomy 27:1)

"You shall therefore obey the voice of YHWH your Elohim and DO His commandments and statutes which I command you this day." (Devarim / Deuteronomy 27:10)

"Cursed be he that confirms not (all) the words of this Law to DO them;" (Devarim / Deuteronomy 27:26)

"And you shall not go aside from ANY of the words which I command you this day," (Devarim / Deuteronomy 28:14)

"But it shall come to pass, if you will not listen to the voice of YHWH your Elohim, to observe to DO ALL of His commandments and statutes which I command you this day, that ALL of these curses shall come upon you, and overtake you:" (Devarim / Deuteronomy 28:14-15)

"See I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil;
In that I command you this day to LOVE YHWH your Elohim, and to walk in His ways, and to KEEP His commandments, and His statutes, and His judgments, you may live,"
(Devarim /Deuteronomy 30:15-16)

" I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life," (Devarim / Deuteronomy 30:19)

".....observe to DO ALL the words of this Law;"
(Devarim / Deuteronomy 31:12)

" Take The Book of The Law, and put it in the side of the Ark of The Covenant of YHWH your Elohim, that it might be there for a witness AGAINST you. For I know your rebellion, and your stiff neck:" (Devarim / Deuteronomy 31:26)

All of which makes it all the more remarkable that Moshe prevented even a single solitary circumcision from being performed according to that Law for the next forty years, (that's how many tens of thousands of the children of Israel? No small number, and no "irrelevant" or "little" matter.
Of course you may choose to "downplay" the record that YHWH gave, but it is still a witness against you, and is that type of avoidance really expressive of loving Him with ALL of your heart, ALL of your soul, All of your mind, and ALL of your strength?
I believe the verses I gave above are quite clear that you have no sound basis to make claim that "Mila is just a mitzva, one of 613. Not enough to lose a place in Olam haBa", or that ANY commandment may be broken without penalty, what are you gonna do, go kill more millions of innocent animals to satisfy The Laws call for blood sacrifice?

Mila has never been considered a "little" or minor matter, but a major one, go ahead and read again what the TaNaKa says about it, and tell us how you arrive at the conclusion that disobeying such a fundamental precept of The Law is to be accounted as a "little" thing, when done by Moshe and all of the tens of thousands whom He delivered to the promised land, while their circumcised yet stiff-necked fathers died in The Wilderness.

Sheshbazzar

No, its not just my personal interpretation, if you were at all familiar with the idioms used in The Scriptures, you would know.

scisyhp

The simple answer is that Christians who site the OT are hypocrits trying to support their weak moral and intellectual views on certain issues.

It's interesting that they don't want slavery, but are anti-gay, I really don't understand the mind of a fundamentalist, if you can even call it that.

Sven

I see. We have an omnipotent being who needs several thousands years to bring fourth this lineage. But ,well, logic and consistency never has been the theist's best friend.

Nice interpretation. Unfortunately for you, it's without any biblical support. But, well, grasping at straws always has been the theist's best friend.

Prester John

Ok, so assume i'm not familiar and give the chapters and verses that support that odd phraseology.

noah

Now you seem to think you can flood this debate with a large stream of quotes that I have been using. I don't get this one I have to say.
All these verses prove my point that God/Yahweh/Jesus intended his Law to last and to be obeyed faithfully forever.
Somehow you I guess you think you are trying to provide a sense of drama or severity here by citing these verses. Yes I know God's Law is supposed to last forever and be kept 24/7/365. No surprise there. So yes it is an exception that Yahweh/Jesus/God allowed a temporary suspension in the Law.
You have yet to prove how this gets xians off the hook when it comes to obeying Jesus' Laws. You can not make a rule out of an exception especially when the rule you are trying to create breaks the rules - in this case JC's rules as recorded in Mathew 5:17-20. BTW why won't you respond to this quote? Why won't you respond to Mathew 5:17-20. It is after all, your God speaking, uttering a command, declaring his blueprint for salvation? Mathew 5:17-20 makes it perfectly clear that the Law is your ticket to salvation and must be obeyed. Period. End of report.



So you don't miss Mathew 5:17-20. I'm going to isolate it here:

Mathew 5:17-20:

Why will you not respond to this quote?









One more time. You're taking it upon yourself to legislate from God's own bench. That lapse in the Law was between Yahweh and Moses. You had nothing to do with it. The Law is laid out for you in all those verses you quoted above (and elsewhere of course). You're taking one temporary lapse in the Law and turning it into a universal dispensation from the Law for xians. How? What is your logic? My god man do you not see how illogical that is? Where does it say that xians are now exempt from the Law because Moses got a temporary dispensation from God (no less)?
You're in an untenable little box where your own logic works against you. The lapse was temporary. The children eventually got circumcised. God went on to say over and over that his Law lasts forever and must be obeyed. Do you think he's kidding?
So a temporary lapse in the Law arranged between Moses and JC/Yahweh equals permanent exemption from the Law for xians. What kind of logic is that?

I'll say it again. You are issuing your own dispensation, creating your own exemption from the Law for xians based on one temporary lapse in the Law. That lapse is meaningless for your purposes. That lapse in the Law was authorized by Yahweh. It was an arrangement betwen him and Moses not you. BTW the jews got circumcised anyway so the Law was obeyed and carried out regardless. Game set and Match Sheshbazaar. Nowhere does Yahweh say that all xians are exempt from the Law as a result of this one episode. Nowhere.
How do you think you can extrapolate from one temporary lapse in the Law (auhtorized by god) that all xians are exempt from the Law?
Imagine running a red light and saying "Don't ticket me officer. I saw a cop run a red light two days ago so I am exempt from the traffic Laws".
Do you not hear yourself?

[/QUOTE]
Incorrect. You're displaying the bankruptcy of your attempt at doctrine by trying to create a rule from an exception. Do you not see how limp it is to make a rule from an exception. It's like saying "OK. Coach cancelled practice Saturday so we no longer have to practice."
Your own example works against you and you don't even see it. Maybe you don't care.




This is a distraction. For now I will withdraw this remark about Mila.
The issue is why xians are not exempt from the Law.