Freethought & Rationalism Archive

seyorni · 03-07-2011, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revolutionary

Quote:

Originally Posted by Von Bek

Well, in case you haven't noticed, many Christians are on a crusade to "take back" the government. That would seem contrary to what Paul says.

Civil disobedience and civil war would be contrary to the spirit. Voting and running for office are not.

I thought Christians were supposed to be in the world but not of it. They're supposed to lay up their treasure in Heaven, not Earth, abandon father and mother, &c.

No Robots · 03-07-2011, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamWho

My opinion, which is pretty well supported is that "There is about 1000x more evidence that Buddha existed than Jesus"

Jesus Quintana: You ready to be fucked, man? I see you rolled your way into the semis. Dios mio, man. Liam and me, we're gonna fuck you up.
The Dude: Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Jane H · 03-07-2011, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Doug,

Good point. Putting a "Good" Jesus against the evangelicals "Bad" Jesus is a losing proposition. Their ideas and behavior mimic the outrageous ideas and behavior of Jesus and his followers more than the Jesus-as-Socrates preachers.

Christianity teaches people to be like Jesus, but the Jesus character in the bible is insane, For example, here's a description of his 70 or so sayings from the Gospel of Mark:

1. Defends his actions (baptism, begging, casting out demons, eating with prostitutes and tax collectors) and the actions of his followers against numerous charges of breaking Jewish Laws. He does not acknowledge that his actions could be disturbing to others.
2. Attacks all Jewish authority figures. Priests, Pharisees and Scribes as hypocrites. Scribes “rob from the widows.”
3. Preaches self violence (If your eye offends, tear it out…)
4. Believes in unlimited power based on the will (volunteerism) (whatever you pray for you will receive). You can control God’s actions. If you forgive others, God will forgive you.
5. Apocalypse with wars and natural disasters coming soon before an eternal Kingdom of God
6. Followers and himself will be unbelievably rich in the Kingdom of God
7. Parables generally indicate the Jewish God has a special hatred for the Jewish people.
8. Calls for laying of hands on children (Pedophilia?) and being trusting like children (desire to return to imaginary idealized, conflictless childhood state)
9. Money-changers (bankers) are robbers.
10. Own followers are untrustworthy and his father, God, has ordained him as a sacrifice to save all mankind.

Christianity teaches one to be like Jesus, however the character of Jesus is paranoid and delusional. It teaches a metaphysical world view which is incompatible with a scientific and humanistic social outlook.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

Jesus actions need to be interpreted with regard to the New Kingdom to come (I find myself in surprising agreement with Bart Ehrman on that, although in fundamental disagreement with him about the form it was supposed to take).

What Jesus was doing was announcing an updated way of “doing God”, and this is the framework within which his actions make perfect sense. With regard to your points:

1.The Torah is to become optional. Excessive attempts to gain God's approval through Torah obedience are misguided at best.
2.All these groups were attempting to prevent Jesus from introducing the New Covenant.
3.Hyperbole, with a message about the seriousness of the commitment required.
4.Hyperbole/we can hardly control God/forgiveness of others is a sine qua non of ones own forgiveness
5.Refers to the historical events leading up to the destruction of the Temple, and with it the core of the old way of “doing God”.
6.Being part of the resurrection is a Money Can't Buy sort of thing.
7.Not hatred for the Jewish people- but a need to stop seeing that racial distinction as the key descriptor of the people of God.
8.Rebirth, ability to see the world as it is with fresh eyes. Need to be able to adopt new ideas without an overwhelming gravity from the old.
9.The word used is 'lestes' who are politically motivated bandits (think N.Ireland's IRA protection racket here). The Temple action is broadly a prophecy of destruction on a system effectively rebelling against God.
10.The reality was the disciples had Mr Bean-like DNA/a necessary step for the New Kingdom to emerge.

It all works well within the meta-narrative of the need to introduce the new way ahead, which if Jesus was correct, is simply a statement of reality.

aa5874 · 03-07-2011, 04:50 PM

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Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

The "RED CROSS" do NOT surrender. They can ONLY help the wounded.

You've taken up arms for one side, the side that declares Christ is god...

Please STOP your nonsense. Jesus Christ was a MYTH fable and Marcion and the Marcionites proved it 1800 years ago.

MANKIND will NO longer be DUPED by the Jesus stories.

AdamWho · 03-07-2011, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamWho

My opinion, which is pretty well supported is that "There is about 1000x more evidence that Buddha existed than Jesus"

Jesus Quintana: You ready to be fucked, man? I see you rolled your way into the semis. Dios mio, man. Liam and me, we're gonna fuck you up.
The Dude: Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

All the dumb quotes in the world are not going to create evidence for your death cult.

No Robots · 03-07-2011, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Jesus Christ was a MYTH fable and Marcion and the Marcionites proved it 1800 years ago.

My word! So, you've become a Hullerite?

No Robots · 03-07-2011, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamWho

All the dumb quotes in the world are not going to create evidence for your death cult.

Insult the Dude? We're done here.

AdamWho · 03-07-2011, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by No Robots

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamWho

All the dumb quotes in the world are not going to create evidence for your death cult.

Insult the Dude? We're done here.

Here is a great example of a person internalizing a belief.

I can call Christianity a death cult all day long and not insult a single person. What you are feeling is not insult but shame because you are smart enough to know that Christianity is an irrational.

Repeat after me: I am not my religion, I am a human being.

aa5874 · 03-07-2011, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane H

....Jesus actions need to be interpreted with regard to the New Kingdom to come (I find myself in surprising agreement with Bart Ehrman on that, although in fundamental disagreement with him about the form it was supposed to take)......

How in the world can you be ATTEMPTING to analyze what Jesus did and said when Bart Ehrman claimed the stories of Jesus are NOT reliable.

It is NOT really KNOWN what Jesus said if he did EXIST.

THE JESUS STORIES WERE CHANGED ACCORDING TO EHRMAN

This is BART EHRMAN in a debate with William Craig

Quote:

...You have the same problems for all of the sources and all of our Gospels.

These are not historically reliable accounts.

The authors were not eyewitnesses; they're Greek-speaking Christians living 35 to 65 years after the events they narrate.

The accounts that they narrate are based on oral traditions that have been in circulation for decades.

Year after year Christians trying to convert others told them stories to convince them that Jesus was raised from the dead.

These writers are telling stories, then, that Christians have been telling all these years.

Many stories were invented, and most of the stories were changed.

For that reason, these accounts are not as useful as we would like them to be for historical purposes.

They're not contemporary, they're not disinterested, and they're not consistent.

See
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/p96.htm#EhrmanOpen

Based on EHRMAN the NT is not of much use for historical purposes. It is NOT really KNOWN what Jesus said or did if he LIVED. Many stories were CHANGED.

The WORDS of Jesus would have CHANGED with the ever Changing stories. And the versions of the Gospels that are from EXTANT Codices are from the earliest 4TH century

No Robots · 03-08-2011, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamWho

Repeat after me: I am not my religion, I am a human being.

The mediocre usually imagine that to let ourselves be guided by the books we admire robs our faculty of judgement of part of its independence. ‘What can it matter to you what Ruskin feels: feel for yourself.’ Such a view rests on a psychological error which will be discounted by all those who have accepted a spiritual discipline and feel thereby that their power of understanding and of feeling is infinitely enhanced, and their critical sense never paralysed…There is no better way of coming to be aware of what one feels oneself than by trying to recreate in oneself what a master has felt. In this profound effort it is our thought itself that we bring out into the light, together with his.--Marcel Proust

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