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Old 06-05-2006, 07:06 AM   #1
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Is it legitimate to translate "christians' as for example used by Pliny, more generally as "messianists"?
Do we have a history of the term? Who used it when where why? Does it have to mean follower of Jesus?

Might it mean messianist?
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Old 06-06-2006, 05:28 AM   #2
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If we could have some comment on this word christian it might shed some light on several threads here! Is it not very dangerous to assume if several writers use this term they are talking about the same thing, especially as it might be a generic label for people with messianic expectations?

First rule - define your terms!
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Old 06-06-2006, 11:26 AM   #3
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Acts says the term was first used at Antioch, but this is probably wrong because Paul doesn't use it.

The earliest non-Xn references know them as Christians (Josephus c. 90 AD, Pliny c. 110 AD).

Beyond that, there's not much to say.
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Old 06-07-2006, 01:02 AM   #4
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But can we work out what people might have meant by the term? Were they talking about the followers of a person or was it another term for people like for example essenes?
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Old 06-07-2006, 06:03 AM   #5
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Josephus connects the term explicitly with Jesus, but the passage is notoriously corrupt, so it's hard to say.

Tacitus (c. 110 AD) connects the term with Christus, who was executed under Pontius Pilate. This, too leaves little room for doubt.

Pliny just mentions them singing hymns to Christ "as to a god", so its unclear if this group is connected with Jesus. Given the other two references, though, it seems unlikely that this was a different sort of "Christian".
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Old 06-07-2006, 06:23 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robto
Josephus connects the term explicitly with Jesus, but the passage is notoriously corrupt, so it's hard to say.

Tacitus (c. 110 AD) connects the term with Christus, who was executed under Pontius Pilate. This, too leaves little room for doubt.

Pliny just mentions them singing hymns to Christ "as to a god", so its unclear if this group is connected with Jesus. Given the other two references, though, it seems unlikely that this was a different sort of "Christian".
But what's our oldest copy of that part of Tacitus please? And/Or, when was the first time another writer mentioned that part of Tacitus?
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Old 06-07-2006, 02:16 PM   #7
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And references to Christus don't get us anywhere! Does the Birth certificate in the Bethlehem registry office read Jesus Christ?

Was Christ a name?

(Wasn't Chrestus mentioned somewhere?)
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Old 06-08-2006, 01:14 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clivedurdle
(Wasn't Chrestus mentioned somewhere?)
Come on now Clive, that's just a typo![/apologetics]
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Old 06-08-2006, 11:56 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by post tenebras lux
But what's our oldest copy of that part of Tacitus please? And/Or, when was the first time another writer mentioned that part of Tacitus?
Our oldest copy of the Annals of Tacitus (which contains the passage and is the apparent source of all surviving manuscripts of the Annals) is dated c 1100 CE.

The first allusion to this passage is in the Chronicle or Sacred History of Sulpicius Severus written c 405 CE.

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Old 06-09-2006, 02:41 AM   #10
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Was the term christian used without reference to Christ or Chrestus? What are the links with essenes, gallileans, whatever else these cults were labelled?

Is Messianist legitimate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Jesus
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