Sven

I already asked you in the other thread (which sparked this one) about Genesis 3, 22, which clearly says that we have the same idea of right and wrong as god. You did not reply up to now.

I see no such warning before Noah's flood.

I'm sure that each and every human who was (supposedly) destroyed by the flood was an "aggressor" - including the newborn babies.

I see. Rejecting a supposedly "perfect" morality "just" because there's some genocide involved is somehow irrational, because there are also good parts in it?

This does not matter. Genesis 3,22 says that we can know that they are wrong.

Haran

Agenda? Nope. He asked me constantly to follow him from thread to thread and respond. Now don't you feel silly.

TomboyMom

Well why didn't you say so in the first place? Instead of provoking general irritation, we could have had an interesting discussion about the impact of Christianity on society. Why sidetrack for pages on moral presuppositionalism?

Haran

You mean like the many white collar crimes which people get away with, and even a lot of the blue collar crimes? You mean like people who smoke marijuana even though it is against societal morals?

Or how about living in a country that is not referred to as a Christian nation? Perhaps you want to talk about 1000s of people being hacked to death together in places in Africa and their murderers getting away with it because it is deemed ok.

There are no consequences after death for your actions, so if you can get away with evil and it benefits you in some way, there is no reason not to.

The problem is that you have not yet realized the potential for the evil that lies behind atheism and agnosticism and the fact that it does and will come out in some people even if you stand by the morals you've cherry-picked from the Christian society around you.

You just confidently stated that God is a figment of my imagination. Prove it. I have not been asserting anything about you believing in his existence for this thread (merely that I happen to believe he exists and I don't care whether you believe it or not).

Because atheism is not a "lack of belief", it (like you just did) makes the affirmative statement that God does not exist. If you want to call yourself an agnostic with respect to the issue, then that is a different matter as I have already stated.

What do you base your moral condemnation of Christianity upon (aside from the fact that Christians likely donate more money that atheists and agnostics to charities among many other good works done around the world)? Your morals are cherry-picked from the Christian society around you. What is your basis for calling anything good or anything bad? Why do you people not see this. I am serious when I say go debate this over in the morals forum. I've debated this subject numerous times with intelligent atheists and agnostics who see this as one of the major problems of their faith.

In my life? Likely many, many more than you.

Wrong. Johnny and several others dog-piled on me (ie. attacked me for those unfamiliar with the common but coloquial phrase) in a thread over in the Biblical Criticism forum. I got tired of trying to respond to their off-topic posts in that forum, so I created this thread for them to jump on me and stop derailing the other thread. In the mean time, I decided to show Johnny and the others that they have no leg to stand on when it comes to morals. I am not trying to prove anything about my morals being better, just that they have no grounds for criticizing mine.

For those who have not the capacity for understanding, this is also a common phrase "you threw the baby out with the bathwater". In other words, Johnny has been offended by Christians in his life and by portions of the bible (ie. the metaphorical dirty "bathwater"), so he has chosen to throw the whole of the bible and all of Christianity (ie. the metaphorical clean "baby"). Get it? Got it? Good. You will likely hear it again somewhere in these forums. It is always good to learn something new.

I'm simply waiting for some intelligence in this thread...there have been glimpses of enlightenment...

Haran

Tomboy, you were one of those irritants who started out with me over in the Biblical Criticism forum, I believe. And it took you until now to get it?

Haran

Super...why don't you explain what that means since you seem to think it is such a contradiction. Better yet, I'll do it for you:

Wiki: Nihilists generally believe all of the following: There is no reasonable proof of the existence of a higher ruler or creator, a "true morality" is unknown, and secular ethics are impossible; therefore, life has no truth, and no action is known to be preferable to any other.

Whoo...big difference. A Nihilist is an enlightened atheist. He sees the points that I am making with respect to morality and ethics.

Now that Super has put a term to the ideas, are any of you beginning to see that what is being said is not just hot air? What I am saying are philosophical ideas that have been around for centuries.

Lugubert

I still don't understand that I didn't immediately and eloquently leave the Christian fold when I read the Elisa story for the first time.

For one atheistic perspective, philosophical Daoism, it is very clear and often repeated that if you act against the Dao, you more or less automatically (without any interfering judge) will suffer consequences.

I won't quote Ellis' eloquent post #106 (p.5), I just agree.

Praeterea censeo that the borg (Borg?) thing still hasn't been explained.

Diogenes the Cynic

These are two logically contradictory statements. If you have decided that God is the "standard of morality," then you have already made a moral judgement about God's actions. Judging that God is "good," is no less an autocratic moral judgement than deciding that he is bad.

Huon

Most of the ordinary atheists are not "enlightened" enough so as to become nihilists.

Haran, you have mentioned the difference : ...and secular ethics are impossible.

I, for one, think that secular ethics are possible. However, my ethics are not necessarily the same as the ethics of somebody else, theist or atheist. For instance, I am not pro-slavery. Some theists are pro-slavery. Have you heard of KKK ?

Haran

Bingo...yet another important point to make and why I believe there truly is no such thing as altruism. Everything is done out of selfishness (what I, myself, refer to as original sin). You, my friend are getting close to the truth that there is no truth in the atheist/agnostic worldview.

I don't doubt that, but what I am trying to help you understand is that you likely live an affluent life when compared with much of the population of the world. You likely live in a relatively free country, possibly referred to as a Christian nation (whether you would call it so or not). You are afforded the possibility of being happy, but there are many in the world (and you could have been one of them, who are not happy...I doubt that the majority of them are atheists/agnostics...ever heard the saying that "there are no atheists in foxholes?...atheists don't like it, and some of them might be so stubborn to their death, but I would say the majority of them would change their minds although it is easy and quite comfortable to say you wouldn't here)

[qoute]My world view is not flawed. It is true, and it makes me happy. Yours may make you happy, but it is untrue. You are in denial.[/quote]

From your statements above, you are beginning to see the problems that are inherent in your worldview and the problems that have been recognized for centuries.

No. You have no objective reasons for your morality that you can prove to me or anyone else. All you have is subjective morals. Perhaps you are a little confused on the terms, I don't mean this in a mean way.

Exactly. As I have already stated in this thread, my belief in God and the Bible are subjective. What I am trying to get others to understand is that their beliefs are also subjective and take "faith". So, you subjectively chose whom/what you will believe in, as do I.

I don't know what your criteria for finding God would be. I've certainly never heard of Eris, but of all the Gods that have supposedly revealed themselves to the world in ancient history, there are very few that have survived until today. Study them as I have.

I don't know... That is your decision. It took me a long time and a lot of thinking to see things as I do and come the the conclusions I have come to. Continue asking questions and thinking very deeply and you may find that you change your mind. This may sound a little silly, but read some hard philosophy (if you can stomach it...it is tough reading) and also some of Dostoyevski's novels. I believe that he was a very honest man with himself and others, much more so than most of us. He struggled verbally with his beliefs and it is quite apparent in his writings. You will see the flaws that he points out in both religion and atheism (or Nihilism...or whatever you want to label it...still a belief that there is no God).

Well, this is only my subjective belief, but I believe you have free will to decide how you see fit.

The Bible says that God does not wish for anyone to perish. It is, however, your choice. All I know about my God is what is written in the Bible, and that includes the terms "merciful" and "just".

This betrays the idea that you think you have thought through this more than I have. I assure you that I have done quite a lot of thinking and reading from your perspective. I have been in this forums for that very purpose, just in case I have ever missed something I need to understand about various worldviews.

It is subjective. So are your beliefs. I have chosen to have "faith", just as that ancient book of wisdom called the Bible request of people. I used to think I could prove it to myself at least, but I can't. No one can. There is only "faith" in whatever worldview you should decide upon.

You sounds pretty sincere in these final questions. If you wish to talk privately, feel free to PM or email me if you would like. I have no problem talking with you about my beliefs as long as you realize that they are my own subjective beliefs.