aa5874

It is most remarkable that the writings of Irenaeus were used by the 4th century Church writer Eusebius when it would have been known to be filled with errors and discrepancies for 150 years.

Up to this day the writings of Justin cannot be found to be in error or to be fundamentally non-historical.

Why did Eusebius use "Against Heresies" instead of Justin's "First Apology" or "Dialogue with Trypho"??

Why did Eusebius rather use a KNOWN erroneous source for the history of the Church rather than Justin's unimpeached writings??

It is clear that Justin's writings represents the history of the Jesus cult but that of Irenaeus was Invented and have now been exposed as a massive forgery.

stephan huller

I don't what this has to with the OP. Maybe you should mention Justin starts with a J and Irenaeus an I

Chili

Different church maybe? And be sure to understand that Catholicism is not a Jesus cult and never was.

aa5874

Anyone who has read writings attributed to Irenaeus will know that the author did NOT even establish "orthodoxy" for himself when he claimed Jesus was crucified under Claudius.

What Irenaeus established is that he himself was an Heretic in "Against Heresies 2.22

How in the world could Irenaeus "help establish" Paul's orthodoxy by claiming Jesus was crucified under Claudius at about the age of 50 years??

Justin Martyr established that there was NO Pauline tradition when he claimed that it was the Memoirs of the Apostles or writings of the Prophets that were ear in the Churches on Sunday.

See Justin's "First Apology".

It is extremely significant to understand that up to the mid 2nd century that there were Churches that did NOT need the Pauline writings.

UP to the mid 2nd century, the Memoirs of the Apostles contained the Theology that was TAUGHT in the Churches.

Justin Martyr shows that the Pauline writings were irrelevant and were NOT at all necessary for the Jesus cult up to the mid 2nd century.

Sheshbazzar

Both names in the original Greek start with the same letter, iota I There was no letter 'J' in either the Greek or Hebrew alphabets.

stephan huller

Yes that's true. Was trying to be funny.

stephan huller

Yes, now we are getting somewhere. Justin didn't need (or didn't cite) the Pauline corpus. But Irenaeus does and says (a) that it was corrupted by Marcion and (b) that Justin wrote a treatise against Marcion. Isn't that crazy? Okay it is possible that Justin did indeed write a book against Marcion, but if Justin didn't use the Pauline Epistles what could he possible have written? Sure the Marcionite gospel is bad. But as the Marcionites thought Paul wrote both the gospel and the epistles and Justin rejected at least the epistles, the argument must have developed into an attack on Paul (or whomever the Marcionites identified as their apostle). Then comes along Irenaeus and says (i) I love Justin and (ii) I am rescuing Paul from Marcion. How the fuck does that work?

It seems obvious to me at least that this 'rescuing' had to involve making Paul more palatable to members of Justin's community. My guess is that Justin's community used Acts but if you notice in Against Heresies Book Three Irenaeus speaks of 'those who do not accept Paul as an apostle' but specifically certain additions to Acts which (1) introduce the figure of Luke as Paul's beloved and (2) that Luke's testimony about Paul proves that he wasn't the guy the heretics say he was.

That section in Acts where that paper flies down from heaven with all the meat on it and the voice - couldn't that be viewed as an addition to overcome vegetarianism? It's just odd that the voice says 'get up Peter kill eat.' Killing an animal is only 'impure' if you're a vegetarian. Jews and Samaritans don't have a problem with killing animals. The use of koinos in the Catholic New Testament is odd. It doesn't exactly match the Jewish concept of uncleanliness. It sounds to me more like the way vegetarians view meat eating as 'vulgar'

Duvduv

I mentioned it before, and it's worth discussing: neither side in the Dialogue with Trypho or even Against Celsus argues that the two sides are talking about two different Yeshus at different times.
It would seem to appear that the Christian advocate never wants to win the dispute by simply stating that the Jewish Yeshu figure is not the same person as the Christian Jesus, thereby ending the dispute, despite the fact that Pandera himself is unrelated to the Christian Jesus of the time of Pilate. This itself suggests that the Christian author did not know from any Jew about a Yeshu in the days of Jannaeus.

aa5874

It is NOT crazy. It is fraud and forgery.

Marcion did NOT use or manipulate the Pauline writings at all.

The very writers of the Church will contradict Irenaeus' Against Heresies.


Ephrem's Against Marcion does NOT show that Marcion used or manipulated the Pauline writings. There is hardly any mention of Paul by Ephrem.

However Ephrem and Justin are in agreement.

Ephrem's Against Marcion III
Justin's First Apology LVIII Ephrem wrote Against Marcion virtually WITHOUT Paul.

Hippolytus also wrote Against Marcion WITHOUT Paul.

Hippolytus claimed Marcion used the doctrine of Empedocles--NOT Paul.

Refutation of All Heresies 7.18 Justin Martyr, Hippolytus and Ephrem wrote Against Marcion WITHOUT Paul.

Marcion used Empedocles.

The claims of Irenaeus in Against Heresies that Marcion used the Pauline letters are forgeries and fraud.

stephan huller

Between you and spin I have two scales in pointless argumentation. Really? The points you make represent uninformed exegesis. The Marcionites did not use Paul? Oh boy. Where do I start with that one? Probably the same place that I left spin with respect to Carrier's 'knowledge' about Philo's interpretation of Jesus as the anatole.

You are the last person who should attempt to interpret an ancient text. You can't read an ancient language. You don't seem to have any friends. You don't seem to be possess the social skills to carry on a conversation for more than one exchange. Your better off just building your 'Myth Theory of aa====" thread.

In any event from a Jew to you

Merry Christmas