Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TedM · 08-06-2005, 09:10 PM

Gary Goldberg has replied to an email I sent him regarding the passage in question, and my interpretation. He approved posting it here:

Quote:

Thanks for your email. You quote the English translation of Ant. 18.113,

"So Aretas made this the first occasion of his enmity between him and Herod, who had also some quarrel with him about their limits at the country of Gamalitis."

And you suggest the words "first occasion" can imply a precedence in time, followed only after some interval by further disputes. As it is dangerous to argue from translations, we have to see if the Greek text supports this. The original is:

ho de archên echthras tautên poiêsamenos peri te horôn en gêi têi Gamalikêi,

Literally translating this, one gets something like;

"But he made this the start of hostilities regarding the boundaries in the land of Gamala..."

This is more compressed than the usual translation. The sentence does not end there, but immediately continues with the disposition of forces and commanders on the two sides.

From the point of view of historical possibility, one can postulate a gap in time between the arrival of Aretas' daughter and his subsequent determination to use this as part of an excuse to go to war. But Josephus, as a writer, has definitely made use of narrative techniques to give the impression of a great pace of events, moving swiftly from Herod's return from Rome, his wife's calculated and dramatic move to Machaerus, her subsequent flight to her father, her revelation of Herod's plans, and then an immediate description of battle. So either Josephus is simply relating events as they indeed happened, or else he has some motivation for making it appear these occurred more closely in time than was the case.

The latter possibility is actually rather interesting. It is quite plausible that ex-followers of John would attribute any defeat of Herod to his wickedness in regard to their former leader, even if the divine punishment were delayed a few years. These followers would naturally gloss over the intervening time as unimportant (only a passing moment when viewed from the vantage point of heaven). If Josephus in fact also compressed this time, than his source was one of these followers of John, or at least a sympathizer; which makes him a sympathizer too. And this potential sympathy is supported by his unusual discussion of John the Baptist (assuming it is authentic), which resonates with his fond memories from the "Life" of his time in the wilderness with the John-like figure Banu.

As you might tell, I rather like this last explanation.

Also, Muller's point is good, but it requires accepting the story from Mark, which many historians would be reluctant to do.

I am in the process of updating my web site. Do you mind if I post your letter on my site? Maybe other people will share their opinions about this.

- Gary Goldberg

ted

Amaleq13 · 08-06-2005, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Literally translating this, one gets something like;

"But he made this the start of hostilities regarding the boundaries in the land of Gamala..."

So how does a translator decide to ignore this fairly clear meaning in favor of the more ambiguous wording we have in English?

With regard to Goldberg's notion of Josephus as a Baptist-sympathizer, I think Crossan points out that Josephus seems to "protest too much" when he asserts that John's baptisms were not, contrary to the Gospel depiction, for the remission of sins.

PS Thanks for making the effort to find somebody to help with the Greek!

TedM · 08-07-2005, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

So how does a translator decide to ignore this fairly clear meaning in favor of the more ambiguous wording we have in English?

Good question.

Quote:

With regard to Goldberg's notion of Josephus as a Baptist-sympathizer, I think Crossan points out that Josephus seems to "protest too much" when he asserts that John's baptisms were not, contrary to the Gospel depiction, for the remission of sins.

Josephus or his source may well have been aware of a popular misconception about it, or it could be an interpolation--in which case we have no foundation at all for saying Mark put JBap in the wrong time frame..

Quote:

PS Thanks for making the effort to find somebody to help with the Greek!

You're welcome.

ted

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