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Old 04-17-2012, 06:02 PM   #31
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On the more general issue external evidence probably requires a date for 1 Clement no later than 140 CE which is early for anti-Marcionite polemic.
Most of my books are in storage so I'm working from memory here, but Joseph B. Tyson places Acts in the 2nd century as an anti-Marcionite polemic, and to make the dating work he pushes Marcion closer to the 1st century, following R. Joseph Hoffmann. Hoffmann's monograph is insanely hard to find, so I haven't read it and don't know how well it works, though I found Tyson's paraphrase plausible enough.

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Old 04-17-2012, 06:37 PM   #32
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This is all very reassuring, for we can see that both these churches fully accept the authority of the Old Testament. From it the author quotes copiously throughout the letter, and time and again holds up its heroes as examples to be imitated. Already this attitude viz a viz Scripture allows us to conclude that there was not the least trace of Marcionesque beliefs in these early churches.

But even more remarkable is that, although the author often seems to be wandering aimlessly in his choice of subjects, it turns out—again, providentially—that he takes up one after another doctrines that Marcion was later to deny, e.g., the creation of the world by the Father of Jesus, the goodness of the created world, the true bodily nature of Christ, that he was descended from Jacob according to the flesh, his bodily resurrection, the goodness of marriage, the future bodily resurrection of Christians, that the Creator is both good and yet to be feared, that ecclesiastical authority goes through the apostles (plural). So, in effect, this letter rules out in advance not just Marcionism in general, but even specific Marcionite beliefs!

But—believe it or not—there is something even more wonderful in 1 Clement. It is as if the Holy Spirit was inspiring Clement in his very choice of words. For he chose to describe the schism of the Corinthian troublemakers with the words: “so alien and strange to the church of God” (ch. 1, my emphases). Those just happen to be the words that Marcion was later to use for his God! And when the author again makes reference to the troublemakers (in chapter 14), he uses an unusual form of one of these words.
:notworthy:

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Old 04-18-2012, 09:56 AM   #33
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Hi All,

RParvus sounds correct in seeing this epistle as an anti-Marcion concoction. It should probably be assigned to the early Third Century when Marcionism was the main enemy of the emerging proto-orthodox church.
However, because Eusebius probably gave all the anti-Marcion material a nice polish and shine, it cannot be definitely assigned in its totality to the 3rd Century.

I have seen no cogent reason for assigning it before the year 200.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin


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This is all very reassuring, for we can see that both these churches fully accept the authority of the Old Testament. From it the author quotes copiously throughout the letter, and time and again holds up its heroes as examples to be imitated. Already this attitude viz a viz Scripture allows us to conclude that there was not the least trace of Marcionesque beliefs in these early churches.

But even more remarkable is that, although the author often seems to be wandering aimlessly in his choice of subjects, it turns out—again, providentially—that he takes up one after another doctrines that Marcion was later to deny, e.g., the creation of the world by the Father of Jesus, the goodness of the created world, the true bodily nature of Christ, that he was descended from Jacob according to the flesh, his bodily resurrection, the goodness of marriage, the future bodily resurrection of Christians, that the Creator is both good and yet to be feared, that ecclesiastical authority goes through the apostles (plural). So, in effect, this letter rules out in advance not just Marcionism in general, but even specific Marcionite beliefs!

But—believe it or not—there is something even more wonderful in 1 Clement. It is as if the Holy Spirit was inspiring Clement in his very choice of words. For he chose to describe the schism of the Corinthian troublemakers with the words: “so alien and strange to the church of God” (ch. 1, my emphases). Those just happen to be the words that Marcion was later to use for his God! And when the author again makes reference to the troublemakers (in chapter 14), he uses an unusual form of one of these words.
:notworthy:

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Old 04-18-2012, 08:46 PM   #34
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.... its author is careful to point out that—until the difficulties he addresses in the letter had arisen—the church of Corinth had maintained such “virtuous and steadfast faith… sober and forbearing piety… perfect and sound knowledge…” that its name was “revered and renowned and lovely in the sight of all men” (ch. 1). That is great news, for this letter lets us see what the faith of this admirable church was. That’s right.
The historical tradition of a most highly revered and admirable "ecclesia" at Corinth, may more than likely be in reference to the widespread reputation of the pagan "ecclesia" at that city, borrowed by the early christian writers in service of the glory of the christian churches (or even christian "church-houses"), none of which have ever been identified by archaeological evidence. Ditto for the "ecclesia" at Alexandria, Rome, Pergamum and Antioch.

One of the fundamental criteria of historical methodology is that any given source may be forged or corrupted, and this quite particularly applies to these so-called anonymous Epistles of Clement.
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Old 04-18-2012, 08:50 PM   #35
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The additional Pliny letters to Hadrian were not mentioned by anyone before the 15th century, at which time a manuscript was suddenly "discovered" in the archives. Somehow, also surprisingly, this manuscript was subsequently "lost". Detering may have obtained data from work of Arthur Drews.
Surely you mean Pliny's letters to Trajan?

Yes, of course.


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Anyway, I lied. I do have an idea what Detering's method is. Wherever it was I read about his work, it was described as "new" and some kind of "stylometry", so I know that much. I believe the work in question is this one. Detering has written a post, Adieu, Plinius!, that I can't any make sense of with Google Translate. All I can get from it is his suspicion that Tertullian is not a reliable witness to the letters, that all the other church fathers are dependent on him, and that our only existing manuscripts are late and/or apparently missing (just the thought of researching manuscript history is making me wince).

I like Detering. I thought The Falsified Paul was fascinating. I wish he would publish in a language I can read.

Ditto.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:00 PM   #36
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The additional Pliny letters to Hadrian were not mentioned by anyone before the 15th century, at which time a manuscript was suddenly "discovered" in the archives.
Thank you Pete, it is an important point.
Thanks tanya. It represents negative evidence that is not often cited. Many of the people in this business gather up the positive evidence for their POV, and present it by the truckload, leaving the negative evidence - either naively or purposefully - out of the picture.

In fact, I think the WIKI page about the Pliny letters at one stage mentioned all this, but it has since been removed.


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This may or may not be important. Here is the link to the letters 'in the original Latin'. Were they not written, originally, in Greek?

That manuscript in a monastery may have been a Latin version, but does that mean that Pliny himself wrote in Latin? Wouldn't official Roman government documents have been written in Greek?
Greek was regarded as the language of the major schools of philosophy, mathematics, medicine, astronomy, etc, etc, etc, however there were many Roman authors who wrote using Latin, including Julius Caesar. If we regarded Tertullian as a real person, we could also cite this valuable source of propaganda as a Latin author.

Those who support the genuine nature of the Pliny and Tacitus references to Christians are actually supporting the idea that the existence of Christians was first advertised and attested in the historical record by Roman authors in the Latin language.




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Old 04-19-2012, 01:16 PM   #37
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I just noticed this variant citation of 1 Clement in Clement of Alexandria which proves - I think - that someone around the time of Clement (probably Irenaeus) rearranged the material and added stuff. Here is Clement of Alexandria's citation of the text:

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Moreover, in the Epistle to the Corinthians, the Apostle Clement also, drawing a picture of the Gnostic, says: "For who that has sojourned among you has not proved your perfect and firm faith? and has not admired your sound and gentle piety? and has not celebrated the munificent style of your hospitality? and has not felicitated your complete and sure knowledge? For ye did all things impartially, and walked in the ordinances of God;" and so forth.

Then more clearly: "Let us fix our eyes on those who have yielded perfect service to His magnificent glory. Let us take Enoch, who, being by his obedience found righteous, was translated; and Noah, who, having believed, was saved; and Abraham, who for his faith and hospitality was called the friend of God, and was the father of Isaac." "For hospitality and piety, Lot was saved from Sodom." "For faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved." "From patience and faith they walked about in goat-skins, and sheep-skins, and folds of camels' hair, proclaiming the kingdom of Christ. We name His prophets Elias, and Eliseus, and Ezekiel, and John."

"For Abraham, who for his free faith was called ' the friend of God,' was not elated by glory, but modestly said, 'I am dust and ashes.'[9] And of Job it is thus written: ' Job was just and blameless, true and pious, abstaining from all evil.'"[10] He it was who overcame the tempter by patience, and at once testified and was testified to by God; who keeps hold of humility, and says, "No one is pure from defilement, not even if his life were but for one day."[11] "Moses, 'the servant who was faithful in all his house,' said to Him who uttered the oracles from the bush,' Who am I, that Thou sendest me? I am slow of speech, and of a stammering tongue,' to minister the voice of God in human speech. And again: ' I am smoke from a pot.'" "For God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble."[1]

"David too, of whom the Lord, testifying, says, 'I found a man after my own heart, David the son of Jesse. With my holy oil I anointed him.'[2] But he also says to God, 'Pity me, O God, according to Thy mercy; and according to the multitude of Thy tender mercies, blot out my transgression. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgression, and my sin is ever before me.' "[3] Then, alluding to sin which is not subject to the law, in the exercise of the moderation of true knowledge, he adds, "Against Thee only have I sinned, and done evil in Thy sight."[4] For the Scripture somewhere says, "The Spirit of the Lord is a lamp, searching the recesses of the belly."[5] And the more of a Gnostic a man becomes by doing right, the nearer is the illuminating Spirit to him. "Thus the Lord draws near to the righteous, and none of the thoughts and reasonings of which we are the authors escape Him--I mean the Lord Jesus," the scrutinizer by His omnipotent will of our heart, "whose blood was consecrated[6] for us. Let us therefore respect those who are over us, and reverence the elders; let us honour the young, and let us teach the discipline of God." For blessed is he who shah do and teach the Lord's commands worthily; and he is of a magnanimous mind, and of a mind contemplative of truth. "Let us direct our wives to what is good; let them exhibit," says he, "the lovable disposition of chastity; let them show the guileless will of their meekness; let them manifest the gentleness of their tongue by silence; let them give their love not according to their inclinations, but equal love in sanctity to all i that fear God. Let our children share in the discipline that is in Christ; let them learn what humility avails before God; what is the power of holy love before God, how lovely and great is the fear of the Lord, saving all that walk in it holily; with a pure heart: for He is the Searcher of the thoughts and sentiments, whose breath is in us, and when He wills He will take it away."

"Now all those things are confirmed by the faith that is in Christ. 'Come, ye children,' says the Lord, ' hearken to me, and I will teach you the fear of the Lord. Who is the man that desireth life, that loveth to see good days?'[7] Then He subjoins the gnostic mystery of the numbers seven and eight. 'Stop thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile. Depart from evil, and do good. Seek peace, and pursue it.'[8] For in these words He alludes to knowledge (gnosis), with abstinence from evil and the doing of what is good, teaching that it is to be perfected by word and deed. ' The eyes of the Lord are on the righteous, and His ears are to their prayer. But the face of God is against those thai do evil, to root out their memory from the earth. The righteous cried, and the Lord heard, and delivered him out of all his distresses.'[9] ' Many are the stripes of sinners; but those who hope in the Lord, mercy shall compass about.'"[10] "A multitude of mercy," he nobly says, "surrounds him that trusts in the Lord."

For it is written in the Epistle to the Corinthians, "Through Jesus Christ our foolish and darkened mind springs up to the light. By Him the Sovereign Lord wished us to taste the knowledge that is immortal." And, showing more expressly the peculiar nature of knowledge, he added: "These things, then, being clear to us, looking into the depths of divine knowledge, we ought to do all things in order which the Sovereign Lord commanded us to perform at the appointed seasons. Let the wise man, then, show his wisdom not in words only, but in good deeds. Let the humble not testify to himself, but allow testimony to be borne to him by another. Let not him who is pure in the flesh boast, knowing that it is another who furnishes him with continence. Ye see, brethren, that the more we are subjected to peril, the more knowledge are we counted worthy of."

CHAP. XVIII.--ON LOVE, AND THE REPRESSING OF OUR DESIRES.

"The decorous tendency of our philanthropy, therefore," according to Clement, "seeks the common good;" whether by suffering martyrdom, or by teaching by deed and word,--the latter being twofold, unwritten and written. This is love, to love God and our neighbour. "This conducts to the height which is unutterable.[11] ' Love covers a multitude of sins.[12] Love beareth all things, suffereth all things.'[13] Love joins us to God, does all things in concord. In love, all the chosen of God were perfected. Apart from love, nothing is well pleasing to God." "Of its perfection there is no unfolding," it is said. "Who is fit to be found in it, except those whom. God counts worthy ?" To the point the Apostle Paul speaks, "If I give my body, and have not love, I am sounding brass, and a tinkling cymbal."[14] If it is not from a disposition determined by gnostic love that I shall testify, he means; but if through fear and expected reward, moving my lips in order to testify to the Lord that I shall confess the Lord, I am a common man, sounding the Lord's name, not knowing Him. "For there is the people that loveth with the lips; and there is another which gives the body to be burned." "And if I give all my goods in alms," he says, not according to the principle of loving communication, but on account of recompense, either from him who has received the benefit, or the Lord who has promised; "and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains," and cast away obscuring passions, and be not faithful to the Lord from love, "I am nothing," as in comparison of him who testifies as a Gnostic, and the crowd, and being reckoned nothing better.

"Now all the generations from Adam to this day are gone. But they who have been perfected in love, through the grace of God, hold the place of the godly, who shall be manifested at the visitation of the kingdom of Christ." Love permits not to sin; but if it fall into any such case, by reason of the interference of the: adversary, in imitation of David, it will sing: "I will confess unto the Lord, and it will please Him above a young bullock that has horns and hoofs. Let the poor see it, and be glad." For he says, "Sacrifice to God a sacrifice of praise, and pay to the Lord thy vows; and call upon me in the day of trouble, and I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me."[1] "For the sacrifice of God is a broken spirit."[2]

"God," then, being good, "is love," it is said.[3] Whose "love worketh no ill to his neighhour,"[4] neither injuring nor revenging ever, but, in a word, doing good to all according to the image of God. "Love is," then, "the fulfilling of the law; "[4] like as Christ, that is the presence of the Lord who loves us; and our loving teaching of, and discipline according to Christ. By love, then, the commands not to commit adultery, and not to covet one's neighbour's wife, are fulfilled,[these sins being] formerly prohibited by fear.

The same work, then, presents a difference, according as it is done by fear, or accomplished by love, and is wrought by faith or by knowledge. Rightly, therefore, their rewards are different. To the Gnostic "are prepared what eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor hath entered into the heart of man;" but to him who has exercised simple faith He testifies a hundredfold in return for what he has left,--a promise which has turned out to fall within human comprehension. Come to this point, I recollect one who called himself a Gnostic. For, expounding the words, "But i say unto you, he that looketh on a woman to lust after, hath committed adultery,"[5] he thought that it was not bare desire that was condemned; but if through the desire the act that results from it proceeding beyond the desire is accomplished in it. For dream employs phantasy and the body. Accordingly, the historians relate the following decision, of Bocchoris the just.[6] A youth, falling in love with a courtezan, persuades the girl, for a stipulated reward, to come to him next day. But his desire being unexpectedly satiated, by laying hold of the girl in a dream, by anticipation, when the object of his love came according to stipulation, he prohibited her from coming in. But she, on learning what had taken place, demanded the reward, saying that in this way she had sated the lover's desire. They came accordingly to the judge. He, ordering the youth to hold out the purse containing the reward in the sun, bade the courtezan take hold of the shadow; facetiously bidding him pay the image of a reward for the image of an embrace.

Accordingly one dreams, the soul assenting to the vision. But he dreams waking, who looks so as to lust; not only, as that Gnostic said, if along with the sight of the woman he imagine in his mind intercourse, for this is already the act of lust, as lust; but if one looks on beauty of person (the Word says), and the flesh seem to him in the way of lust to be fair, looking on cam ally and sinfully, he is judged because he admired. For, on the other hand, he who in chaste love looks on beauty, thinks not that the flesh is beautiful, but the spirit, admiring, as I judge, the body as an image, by whose beauty he transports himself to the Artist, and to the true beauty; exhibiting the sacred symbol, the bright impress of righteousness to the angels that wait on the ascension;[7] I mean the unction of acceptance, the quality of disposition which resides in the soul that is gladdened by the communication of the Holy Spirit. This glory, which Shone forth on the face of Moses, the people could not look on. Wherefore he took a veil for the glory, to those who looked cam ally. For those, who demand toll, detain those who bring in any worldly things, who are burdened with their own passions. But him that is free of all things which are subject to duty, and is full of knowledge, and of the righteousness of works, they pass on with their good wishes, blessing the man with his work. "And his life shall not fall away"--the leaf of the living tree that is nourished "by the water-courses."[8] Now the righteous is likened to fruit-bearing trees, and not only to such as are of the nature[1] of tall-growing ones. And in the sacrificial oblations, according to the law, there were those who looked for blemishes in the sacrifices. They who are skilled in such matters distinguish propension[2] (orexis) from lust (epiqumia); and assign the latter, as being irrational, to pleasures and licentiousness; and propension, as being a rational movement, they assign to the necessities of nature.
If I had more time I would go through all of it but notice what Clement of Alexandria cites as one continuous text:

Quote:
"Let us fix our eyes on those who have yielded perfect service to His magnificent glory. Let us take Enoch, who, being by his obedience found righteous, was translated; and Noah, who, having believed, was saved; and Abraham, who for his faith and hospitality was called the friend of God, and was the father of Isaac." "For hospitality and piety, Lot was saved from Sodom." "For faith and hospitality, Rahab the harlot was saved." "From patience and faith they walked about in goat-skins, and sheep-skins, and folds of camels' hair, proclaiming the kingdom of Christ. We name His prophets Elias, and Eliseus, and Ezekiel, and John."

"For Abraham, who for his free faith was called ' the friend of God,' was not elated by glory, but modestly said, 'I am dust and ashes.'[9] And of Job it is thus written: ' Job was just and blameless, true and pious, abstaining from all evil.'"[10] He it was who overcame the tempter by patience, and at once testified and was testified to by God; who keeps hold of humility, and says, "No one is pure from defilement, not even if his life were but for one day."[11] "Moses, 'the servant who was faithful in all his house,' said to Him who uttered the oracles from the bush,' Who am I, that Thou sendest me? I am slow of speech, and of a stammering tongue,' to minister the voice of God in human speech. And again: ' I am smoke from a pot.'" "For God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble."[1]

"David too, of whom the Lord, testifying, says, 'I found a man after my own heart, David the son of Jesse. With my holy oil I anointed him.'[2] But he also says to God, 'Pity me, O God, according to Thy mercy; and according to the multitude of Thy tender mercies, blot out my transgression. Wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgression, and my sin is ever before me.' "
is now preserved in two different sections of 1 Clement, the first is now chapter 9:

Quote:
Let us set before us Enoch, who being found righteous in obedience was translated, and his death was not found. Noah, being found faithful, by his ministration preached regeneration unto the world, and through him the Master saved the living creatures that entered into the ark in concord. Abraham, who was called the 'friend,' was found faithful in that he rendered obedience unto the words of God. He through obedience went forth from his land and from his kindred and from his father's house, that leaving a scanty land and a feeble kindred and a mean house he might inherit the promises of God.
The second part now forms a new section in 1 Clement chapter 17:

Quote:
Let us be imitators also of them which went about in goatskins and sheepskins, preaching the coming of Christ. We mean Elijah and Elisha and likewise Ezekiel, the prophets, and besides them those men also that obtained a good report. Abraham obtained an exceeding good report and was called the friend of God; and looking steadfastly on the glory of God, he saith in lowliness of mind, But I am dust and ashes.

Abraham obtained an exceeding good report and was called the friend of God; and looking steadfastly on the glory of God, he saith in lowliness of mind, But I am dust and ashes. Moreover concerning Job also it is thus written; And Job was righteous and unblamable, one that was true and honored God and abstained from all evil.

Yet he himself accuseth himself saying, No man from filth; no, not though his life be but for a day. Moses was called faithful in all His house, and through his ministration God judged Egypt with the plagues and the torments which befell them. Howbeit he also, though greatly glorified, yet spake no proud words, but said, when an oracle was given to him at the bush, Who am I, that Thou sendest me? Nay, I am feeble of speech and slow of tongue. And again he saith, But I am smoke from the pot.

But what must we say of David that obtained a good report? of whom God said, I have found a man after My heart, David the son of Jesse: with eternal mercy have I anointed him. Yet he too saith unto God Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy great mercy; and according to the multitude of Thy compassions,blot out mine iniquity. Wash me yet more from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
For I acknowledge mine iniquity, and my sin is ever before me. Against Thee only did I sin, and I wrought evil in Thy sight; that Thou mayest be justified in Thy words, and mayest conquer in Thy
pleading. For behold, in iniquities was I conceived, and in sins did my mother bear me. For behold Thou hast loved truth: the dark and hidden things of Thy wisdom hast Thou showed unto me.
I think this is very important because it demonstrates not only that the orthodox manipulated early Patristic material but likely also the writings of Paul. 1 Clement was often included in the New Testament. This is the pattern by which the Marcionite epistles were falsified by the orthodox.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:26 PM   #38
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There's much more here I am noticing. Look at the subsequent citation of 1 Clement:

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For it is written in the Epistle to the Corinthians, "Through Jesus Christ our foolish and darkened mind springs up to the light. By Him the Sovereign Lord wished us to taste the knowledge that is immortal." And, showing more expressly the peculiar nature of knowledge, he added: "These things, then, being clear to us, looking into the depths of divine knowledge, we ought to do all things in order which the Sovereign Lord commanded us to perform at the appointed seasons. Let the wise man, then, show his wisdom not in words only, but in good deeds. Let the humble not testify to himself, but allow testimony to be borne to him by another. Let not him who is pure in the flesh boast, knowing that it is another who furnishes him with continence. Ye see, brethren, that the more we are subjected to peril, the more knowledge are we counted worthy of."
This is broken up into two separate sections again in our 'orthodox' form of 1 Clement in chapters 36 and 40 respectively. There can be no doubt that over half of 1 Clement is added nonsense to obscure what Clement of Alexandria was using the text to prove - a second baptism reference. The original 1 Clement was not orthodox, it was gnostic like 2 Clement.

The key term here - 'he added' - makes clear that the two passages were connected like what we saw earlier. I wonder if it is too far to consider that both Clement of Alexandria and Clement of Rome's writings have been adulterated.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:36 PM   #39
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Here is how Clement of Alexandria's continuous was broken up in our orthodox 1 Clement. There are now at least four pieces spread out over the body of the Catholic text:

Quote:
Through Jesus Christ our foolish and darkened mind springs up to the light. By Him the Sovereign Lord wished us to taste the knowledge that is immortal. These things, then, being clear to us, looking into the depths of divine knowledge, we ought to do all things in order which the Sovereign Lord commanded us to perform at the appointed seasons. Let the wise man, then, show his wisdom not in words only, but in good deeds. Let the humble not testify to himself, but allow testimony to be borne to him by another. Let not him who is pure in the flesh boast, knowing that it is another who furnishes him with continence. Ye see, brethren, that the more we are subjected to peril, the more knowledge are we counted worthy of.
The first sentence appears in 1 Clement 36:

Quote:
through Him we behold as in a mirror His faultless and most excellent visage; through Him the eyes of our hearts were opened; through Him our foolish and darkened mind springeth up unto the light; through Him the Master willed that we should taste of the immortal knowledge
The second part appears now in 1 Clement 40:

Quote:
Forasmuch then as these things are manifest beforehand, and we have searched into the depths of the Divine knowledge, we ought to do all things in order, as many as the Master hath commanded us to perform at their appointed seasons.
The third part is now found in 1 Clement 38:

Quote:
Let the wise display his wisdom, not in words, but in good works. He that is lowly in mind, let him not bear testimony to himself, but leave testimony to be borne to him by his neighbor. He that is pure in the flesh, let him be so, and not boast, knowing that it is Another who bestoweth his continence upon him.
The fourth part is now found in 1 Clement 41:

Quote:
Ye see, brethren, in proportion as greater knowledge hath been vouchsafed unto us, so much the more are we exposed to danger.
This is terribly significant. If someone had the ability to change the order of the original letter to Clement then it is not a stretch of the imagination to think the same thing happened to the gospel. Look for instance at the order of the gospel narrative in the Epistle of the Apostles.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:37 PM   #40
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All I can get from it is his suspicion that Tertullian is not a reliable witness to the letters,
Tertullian references the key letters in the Apologeticum, attacking Trajan's policy of persecution if the issue comes up, but otherwise not bothering (and also of discouraging delation).

Quote:
that our only existing manuscripts are late and/or apparently missing (just the thought of researching manuscript history is making me wince).
I'm away from home so can't look in Texts and Transmissions, but IIRC book X was preserved in a manuscript (8-9th c.?) from the French abbey of St. Victor, which survived all the way through to the renaissance, only to be sent to Italy, the extra material printed in a new edition (an Aldine?), and then the "now useless" manuscript cut up for parchment at the printers. But I believe that a fragment of the St. Victor ms. does still exist, in the J. P. Morgan collection. All this from memory, tho.

The transmission of the letters of Pliny the Younger has two branches, the 9-book family and the 10-book family. That's all I recall off-hand.
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