yummyfur

Depends on which sign of Jonah you mean? I think Jesus was talking about the fall of Ninevah, this was what Jonah was supposed to declare, but then when he did declare it, the wicked relented and god forgave them. Jonah was upset, because it seems the main reason he didn't want to go preach to them, was he wanted them to be destroyed, and he thought if he warned them, they might seek forgiveness and god would be mercifull.

At the end of the story Jonah sits watching for Ninevah hoping it to be destroyed(even though he knows better) sitting under a tree that grew up for shade, which then a worm destroys and he wishes to die, because Ninevah is still fine but his shelter is destroyed.

One could read Ninevah(capitol of the empire) as Rome, and that some people were looking for god to destroy it as a sign, but it would not happen, just like in Jonah. But instead their own shelter would be destroyed, Jerusalem.

That is why he brings up the red sky business, they believe the signs are showing that Rome will be destroyed or alternatively that Jerusalem will be propserous, but they have read them wrong because they have placed them at the wrong time.

The key line in Jonah is 4:10, about the plant

"Then the LORD said, "You had compassion on the plant for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which came up overnight * and perished overnight *." where the word overnight in Hebrew is ben, which can also and primarily, be translated as son.

This fits in with the witherd fig tree parables as well.

Hallandale

An interesting premise....But look at Matthew 12:38-40 NAS
38Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You."
39But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

40for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

yummyfur

Yeah, but that has nothing to do with Chapter 16, where this is not stated, in fact it seems like this is tacked on as an explanation by Matthew.

One also is forgetting that Mathew is a composite work, it's quite possible that if some scholars are correct and there was no ressurection story in the original Mark, that this was a later idea, that got put in as an explanation.

So Matthew borrows this pericope about the sign of Jonah which originally had to do with the actual prophecy of Jonah, the destruction of Ninevah and the withered plant, but of course once the ressurection story is added, people see a connection to the three days and nights in the whale, and put in a note of explanation.

Notice what line comes after that you left out

"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here."

Also read Luke 11:29-33, who also seems to imply the sign of Jonah, is the prophecy against Ninevah, not the belly of the whale junk.

In fact this doesn't really fit well, because Jonah only preached after he was spit out of the whale(and no one actually saw this "sign" or was influenced by it to believe in Jonah), but Jesus preached before he ressurected, not after.

When one reads the Talmud on Jonah, their thoughts are interesting as well, for they say in Sanhedrin 89b

"Had they repented, all prophets would have been informed. But in the case of Jonah they did repent, yet Jonah himself was not informed! — Jonah was originally told that Nineveh would be turned, but did not know whether for good or for evil"

It's interesting that they believe that Jonah's prophecy was just that something would happen to Ninevah, but that he did not know wether it would be good or evil, this fits in well with the red sky metaphor Jesus uses in Matthew 16. Also in the Talmud Pesahim 89b, they say that the reluctance of Jonah to preach to Ninevah and why he was so upset when they repented, was because the heathens had repented whereas the Jews did not when told by their prophets.

My guess is that Jesus is trying to hint at similar things to his contemporary Jews.

Finally in the sign of the withered plant, it exists a night, a day, and a night till it's destruction much like the ressurection story, except in reverse.

Also a worm eats the plant/tree, the word here is used for the coccus ilicis, the worm attaches itself to a trunk a tree, and hatches her eggs inside, firmly affixing herself to cover and protect the eggs. There she dies and a scarlet fluid from her stains the tree and her body, these worms bodies were collected in antiguity to make scarlet dye.

Hallandale

Dear Yummy,
I'm sorry.....but did I fail to tell you that you are real smart?
You are a genius. I'm impressed with your scholarship.
I wish I would have thought of that stuff you wrote.
Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

Hallandale

Let's take a look at what Bible says about the supposed post resurrection appearances of Jesus.

I want you to consider the eyewitness testimony and decide if Jesus of Nazareth arose from the dead, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Concerning the supposedly resurrected Jesus consider the following scriptures.

Luke 24:16 NAS
"""But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him."""

Luke 24:37 KJV
""But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.""

Matthew 28:17 KJV
And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

John 20:14 KJV
""And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.""

John 21:4 KJV
""But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.""

After his supposed resurrection, Jesus only showed himself to his own followers according to the Bible. You would expect that his followers would be able to recognize him after his resurrection. But look again at the scriptures you just read. Jesus own followers didn't recognize him.
Pay special attention to the following...Matthew 28:16-17 KJV
16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

""" eleven disciples """ """but some doubted"""
After spending years traveling, eating, sleeping, talking, etc with Jesus, some of his closest disciples were doubtful that this was him.

Perhaps they were deceived by an imposter and Jesus was dead? After all nobody actually saw him rise from the dead.

Perhaps one of Jesus' brothers were taking his place to keep Jesus' ministry alive?

In a court room an identification requires 100% accuracy.
Would you accept the identification of the supposedly resurrected Jesus beyond a reasonable doubt?

Nick Hallandale
enterprisestrategy@earthlink.net

Tigers!

Not quite, an empty tomb is evidence that there is no body there. Why is there is no body is another question entirely.

Tigers!

Isn't the sign of Jonah more than just Christ's death and resurrection?
After his ejection from the fish, Jonah went to Ninevah and preached of a coming disaster upon Ninevah unless they repented. They repented and new life for them began.

PhilosopherJay

Hi Yummyfur,

I agree that the original text was not talking about a resurrection, but I don't think it was talking about the destruction of Rome either.

In my new book, The Evolution of Christs and Christianity (evocc.com), I demonstate that the lines in question were orginally said by John the Baptist.

Now the question is what was the sign of Jonah? What kind of sign does Jonah actually give the people of Nineveh? Look at Jonah chapter 3:


4: Jonah began to go into the city, going a day's journey. And he cried, "Yet forty days, and Nin'eveh shall be overthrown!"
5: And the people of Nineveh believed God; they proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them to the least of them.

It is apparent that the only sign that Jonah gives is to march into the city of Ninevah and pronounce that the city will be destroyed in forty days.

When John the Baptist says that the sign he will give will be the sign of Jonah, he is really saying that he will openly predict the destruction of Jerusalem. That will be his sign. he is not going to do magic, only prophesy.
The line is supposed to be funny. The joke is that Jonah doesn't give a sign. John will not give a sign, only the "sign of Jonah" which is not a sign, but a prophesy. It is his cute little way of telling those who ask for a magical sign to go to hell.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

yummyfur

Maybe I was unclear when I wrote, but I didn't say that the sign of Jonah was going to be the destruction of Rome, just the opposite. In fact I would say that Sign of Jonah is a euphamism for, "whatever things you think will happen and hope will happen, the exact opposite will occur". Also I think there is a possible implied destruction of Jerusalem there as well, as I think I stated in my first post, though I have a tendency to write to quickly and not make my points clear.

Interesting, I'll have to look at it, but for this discussion, whoever said it doesn't change much

I somewhat agree with you here, the author is trying to be clever, though I think the sign of Jonah is the non-destruction of Ninevah and the destruction of the plant. Still I think there is very much the sense of "there will be no sign that you will understand/expect" sense to it, which borders on the concept of no sign at all.

Also my point from the Talmud, was that they interpret the prophecy that Jonah gave as "Ninevah will be overturned" which Jonah felt would be the destruction of Ninevah, but in reality it meant that Ninevah would go from sinfullest city to uncontested rightousness even down to the animals. That is sin would be overturned. This goes towards the whole "be carefull how you interpret signs" that was emphasized by the earlier red sky metaphor. So in this sense, I don't think this quite jives with whoever, Jesus or John, prophecising the destruction of Jerusalem, as it would imply that it wouldn't come true. Only the sign of the withered plant that god gives Jonah afterwords can creatively be interpreted as infering the destruction of Jerusalem.

yummyfur

Thanks, I think, unless your mocking me with over the top praise?

One of the reasons I think the portion directly referencing the belly of the whale in Matthew was added in by someone not understanding the text, besides the fact that Luke doesn't have it, is that it actually contradicts the resurrection story, in that the Jonah in the whale story clearly states three days AND nights, which is unequivically 72 hours, whereas the resurrection story has it only spanning 1 whole day and two partial days, which does match the withered plant story. If the original authors had the belly of the whale story in mind I assume they would have made the resurrection story match.

Also as gstafleu pointed out, Mark 8:12 says for a fairly similar section "no sign will be given". I think the Sign of Jonah is a way of saying something similar to that, but with much more clever nuances, that is "whatever sign you hope for or think will happen, it won't, or the opposite will occur" along with some additional more complex ideas.

Also gstafleu thinks maybe John wizened up about the whole sign speil, but in fact he has a similar mention, where he seems to take the erroneous Matthew idea about the belly of the whale one step further, but getting rid of the troublesome 72 hour contradiction that the Jonah story causes.

John 2:18-19
"The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."