lycanthrope

Hi

In my on going search for outside influences on Christianity and vice versa, what pagan influences on Christianity have modern scholars been able to identify?

Is there a link between Osiris-Dionysus character and Jesus? Some of the sources say it was O-D copying Jesus other Christian apologetics say it was the other way around.

It'd be great if someone can list the similiarities of ancient pagan religions that Christianity seem to build upon. I am interested in this aspect on pagan influences on christianity but I dont quite know where to start, would appreciate if someone point me in the right direction.

Thanks

Huon

For Osiris, you could find the beginning of an answer at :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

"Jesus copying Osiris" by "Christian apologetics" ??? Critic historians of religions, maybe yes. (Freke and Gandy).

Oh, sorry, I missed this formidable argument :

Toto

Modern scholars have tended to avoid the question, which was a favorite in earlier eras. Modern scholars emphasize the Jewish roots of Christianity, and also Hellenistic cultural influences on Christianity. These areas have been productive in explaining a great deal about early Christianity.

Richard Carrier notes in his essay on Kersey Graves' 16 Crucified Saviors

lycanthrope

I do remember some Christian apologetic site mentioning that Osiri-Dionysus copied from Jesus I didnt know what it meant exactly. I thought it meant that the cult of O-D originally didnt have the sacraments, death-rebirth godman, virgin birth etc until Jesus came along and then they incorporated it into their religion.

lycanthrope

so Toto, whats your thought on this subject?

Roger Pearse

What you need to determine first, tho, is whether the mythos of "Osiris-Dionysius" actually existed; and whether it included "the sacraments, death-rebirth godman, virgin birth", and which ancient sources say so.

I was wondering who this "Osiris-Dionysius" was anyway. Can we have some specifics? I know who Osiris is, and his mythos; I know who Dionysius is, and his. But the combination?

Is there anything in Apollodorus?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Toto

I think there is too much misinformation floating around that is accepted as "fact."

If you want to discredit Christianity, you don't need to show that it has pagan roots - you would do better to look at its entire history and philosophy. And conversely, if you show that there are pagan roots to Christianity, it doesn't necessarily disprove anything other than a particular narrative about Christianity. (See Tom Harpur, a mythicist who still considers himself a Christian.)

Guenevere

There are so many similarities between Paganism and Christianity from all different angles.
Do you mean to find examples of older stories and myths that the gospel writers had plagiarized from or had been 'inspired' by, like previous stories identical to the Jesus story in particular?
(The story of the Egyptian god Horus, among countless others from all different cultures, is identical to Jesus's story; born of a virgin, son of god, murdered then resurrected, healed people, etc...)
Are you looking for holidays that have been hijacked by Christians? (Halloween, Christmas)
Are you looking for customs and practices Christians 'borrowed' from and made their own?
(The ideas of 'western medicine' and using medicinal plants and herbs for healing aspects [like willow bark (asprin) for its pain relieving properties] were pioneered by 'witches' and 'potion makers', or pagans. These pagan 'witches' were consequently punished by Christian leaders for using 'potions', and then tortured for the recipes, which were then used by church leaders.)

There is so much stuff, it would be easier to retrieve specific examples if you were to break it up into specific issues you're looking for.

bacht

Is it reasonable to separate the origins of Christianity from its later development? If the first believers were Jewish Torah followers, can we not look at pagan and gnostic influence after the 1st C?

Toto

It is easy to document pagan influences on Christianity after the 3rd century - Protestants do this all the time as part of their polemic against the Catholic Church.

The more difficult question is that of origins. We don't actually know if the first believers were Jewish Torah followers, or if this is a later anti-Marcionite invention. We don't know if there were actually any Christians in the first century, or if second century Christians invented that history for their movement.

We don't know for sure if there was a Jewish rabbi named Jesus who was crucified, and whose followers thought that he rose from the dead - or if this was a story inspired by a melding of Jewish and pagan themes.

I hope that Richard Carrier's forthcoming book will shed some light on this.