jbernier

[QUOTE=Mughal]You know, this sounds like exactly the same logic that fundamentalists give for missions work, aggressive evangelism, etc.: I see you going to hell so I have to do my damnedest to warn you.

And, again, you have no say in the matter. You can try to stop Canada from making its own decisions as a sovereign state but, guess what, you can't. You don't have the power or the say. Instead I'd suggest that you tend to your own backyard. I am sure that the UK has problems of its own (Ireland comes to mind right away).

If the UK considers such a move then deal with it then.

No, ideas and methods are not the same in the secular democratic world. Look at, for instance, the difference between the French, British and American governmental structures. For Canada's part, we have a very specific history of dealing with cultural plurality. It is very different than the French, British or American history. Perhaps that is because we were formed out of former colonies of both Britain and France and thus had to integrate two completely different languages and cultures as equals when forming our nation. We have always attempted to maximize the degree to which different groups can practice their customs and traditions. This, again, points out the differences in secular thought; in France, for instance, being secular tends to mean minimizing obvious differences between different peoples whereas for us it tends to mean allowing differences to peacefully coexist and thrive. These are very different ideas - both of which are secular. This proposal flows logically out of our secular ideals.

You do have to have some knowledge of Canada to understand our general practice of dealing with cultural plurality. Without said knowledge you really cannot understand the problems Canada faces which has given rise to the proposal. How can you speak intelligently to an issue when you don't understand the logic or context standing behind that issue?

Rustharold

It is a baby step towards their sinister goals. We all know this is more than just a simple benign agenda.

Mughal

Exactly, that is the point I am making ie exchanging ideas with each other is better so that we could learn things of each other and improve ourselves and help others do the same.

jbernier

But that is not what you are doing. I'd have no problem if it was. What you are doing is trying to influence mygovernment in its decision-making process. That is very different than exchanging ideas.

That's the thing: You are trying to manipulate policy decisions here in my country. As I said before, that is no different than you coming into my home and trying to bully me around: "No, you can't wash dishes like that. Do it my way." Etc. Again: Our domestic policy is not for you to say "No" to (and that is the title of this thread, may I remind you).

jbernier

Do you have evidence for this "sinister", Muslim, conspiracy? Do you have evidence that this is part of this larger sinister conspiracy (which you have not demonstrated actually exists in the first place)?

I have to say that is vaguely reminiscent of the ol' Jewish conspiracy theories that have floating around nearly forever.

I don't. I have no reason to assume ulterior motives here. Do you want to provide such a reason?

jbernier (waiting for evidence to support above assertions)

DMB

Perhaps this thread would be better in the Political Forum. Nonetheless, I find it disturbing in principle that you appear to be suggesting that no-one other than a Canadian has the right to comment on Canadian politics or to warn Canadians about possible adverse consequences of a proposed action. AFAIK that has never been a principle adopted by IIDB.

jbernier

That is not what I have said (indeed, I have repeatedly said the opposite). What I have said is that there is a difference between voicing opinion and actively campaigning against another country's domestic policies (which is what this thread started as - not mere commentary upon Canadian politics but rather an activist attempt by non-Canadians to sway the Canadian political process in regard to domestic policy).

hinduwoman

I started a thread on this in
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=97344
My take is this is actually a matter of internal politics within the muslim community.

whichphilosophy

Opinions are fine, but where's the beef. Just about everyone against the Sharia courts has given opinions. As I said until we know what is being asked for we can only speculate.

Speculation in view of some peoples hatred or hostility to Muslims is a dangerous thing.

Mughal

Dear jbernier,

I did not start the petition, the canadians have done it but I support it so I brought it here to other people's attention as well.

The reason I support it is because I know islam and muslims because that is what my back ground is and I had been involved from that side as well before I turned away from Islam.

The reason I am so concerned is that no islamic struggle has been started by muslims anywhere that did not bring about the desired result for muslims at least to some degree. Muslims have been moving towards their goals always, be it gradually and perhaps a bit unnoticed. So I am as sure as I can be, they are going to increase their influence in Canada as they have already been doing elsewhere. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that a people should not have influence but not the influence that furthers political interests of a religion, especially islam.

Dear friend, I am not fighting with you nor do I intend to curtail your freedom but things do happen in life when drastic actions need to be taken. The issue of islamic influence in canadian politics has repurcussions for others too. Any supporter lost from our side is a serious set back for us because together we are a team.

Also it is important for us to realise, how muslims see things from their side of the fence. Any little gain for them raises their hopes and they increase their activities to gain more. Muslims are a bunch of people who do not allow free speech in their media even in the free states. Look at muslims news papers and magazines in canada and europe or USA etc. They do not allow questioning of their religion even on their internet forums. Their mosques and madrassas are totally void of freedom even in the free states. So we cannot give people freedom who oppress and suppress others even from amongst themselves.

What do you think is going to happen if muslims are allowed to preech their dogmas and indoctrinate people yet people cannot question their beliefs? Will this not give them free rein to increase their influence? If we must lose some ground to muslims in accepting their demands then we must also make some equally important demands on them aswell and make sure they too deliver on that. This is the least we should do, otherwise you have no teeth to bite. If we must accept that they can live in free states a bit according to their way of life then they too must accept that others can live in their states a bit according to their way of life.

French banned head-scarves for children in their own state schools yet muslims campaigned worldwide against that. So if British muslims have the right to campaign against France, why can't or why shouldn't the British secularists against Islamic shariah in canada?

As far hurting peoples' feelings due to criticising each others beliefs, we are all hurt by each other all the time. Atheists are always hurt to see people believing in gods just as theists are hurt by atheists not believing in their gods.

You must realise that islamic shariah is a very hurtful thing in any shape or form. It is this hurtfulness of shariah that I am against. Apostates, women etc are already hurt badly by this shariah even without its implementation. When a community deeply believes that you are an evil person if you do not believe in what they believe or if you leave their belief system then the while you are living amongst them you are made to feel ashamed of yourself. Since you were not raised in this cult, you do not know in how many different ways it hurts people. If you were not allowed to live a normal life, you too would start talking like me and many others against those who hurt you for no reason at all. It is time we moved these people away from their hurtful cults and not give them the cake and let them eat it.

How many muslim girls have suffered in silence for not being allowed to mary their nonmulsim lovers. Many have been killed. How many nonmuslim women had to convert to islam to marry their muslim lovers and many yet lost everything because islam is such a cult that gives little rights to women against their men. Despite whatever I say, you have every right to express your opinion and make up your own mind as you feel comfortable.

Regards and all the best.