Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tubby Lardmore · 04-28-2009, 06:02 PM

This morning on Christian radio I heard part of a message by Pastor Chuck Smith. Googling that name finds this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Smith_(pastor)

which I presume is talking about the same person I heard on the radio.

He casually tossed off this line: "If you want proof that the Bible is true, look at the Jews... No ethnic group could survive for 2,000 years without a homeland, but they did."

The idea of course is that the God of the Bible has protected His chosen people (if we conveniently ignore pogroms and the Holocaust) through supernatural means.

Any comments on this? Is he correct in implying that no other group has pulled off such a feat? What naturalistic explanation could account for their survival?

thegdin · 04-28-2009, 06:11 PM

there are buddhists all over the world too. they have survived as buddhists for longer than the jews and i have yet to hear of buddhaland.

and even if his statement were accurate, how does that prove the bible is true exactly?

steve_bnk · 04-28-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby Lardmore

This morning on Christian radio I heard part of a message by Pastor Chuck Smith. Googling that name finds this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Smith_(pastor)

which I presume is talking about the same person I heard on the radio.

He casually tossed off this line: "If you want proof that the Bible is true, look at the Jews... No ethnic group could survive for 2,000 years without a homeland, but they did."

The idea of course is that the God of the Bible has protected His chosen people (if we conveniently ignore pogroms and the Holocaust) through supernatural means.

Any comments on this? Is he correct in implying that no other group has pulled off such a feat? What naturalistic explanation could account for their survival?

It is the other way around, if they are the chosen people of god, why have they faired so badly?

And, if JC is the Jewish messia, then all Jews tday are in the wrong..

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-28-2009, 09:48 PM

When's the last time the Romani (Gypsy) people had a homeland? They've been wandering, displaced for over 1000 years, and have suffered all the same persecutions the Jews have. They were even put in the death camps.

Chuck Smith is spouting nonsense of course. Jumping from Jews surviving as an ethnicity without a political "homeland" (not a unique phenomenon) to "therefore the Bible is true" is a gigantic non-sequitur.

motorhead · 04-29-2009, 04:04 AM

It's proof to him and to many other Christians but it's not proof in the normal sense that most people understand it. I'm quite sure there are histories of the Jewish people written that show how they've survived for 2000 years without a homeland. The claim that behind their survival is God's hand is a faith statement, not proof.

semiopen · 04-29-2009, 05:08 AM

This statement is attributed to Benjamin Disraeli, but is apocyphal as claimed here...

http://jeli.org/PDF/SummerOne/TheGre...shSurvival.pdf

Quote:

There is an apocryphal story about a conversation between the 19th-century Jewish-born British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli and the reigning monarch at the time. Queen Victoria. When Victoria asked Disraeli If there was a miracle that could prove God's existence, Disraeli is reported to have said, "The survival of the Jews."

It's not so much proof as it is plagiarism, although in this case the actual author is unknown.

Cesc · 04-29-2009, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby Lardmore

He casually tossed off this line: "If you want proof that the Bible is true, look at the Jews... No ethnic group could survive for 2,000 years without a homeland, but they did."

What exactly is an "ethnic" Jew?

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-29-2009, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby Lardmore

He casually tossed off this line: "If you want proof that the Bible is true, look at the Jews... No ethnic group could survive for 2,000 years without a homeland, but they did."

What exactly is an "ethnic" Jew?

It's a real classification. The word "Jewish" has a double meaning. It's both an ethnicity and a religion, and it's possible to be one without being the other.

ksen · 04-29-2009, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegdin

there are buddhists all over the world too. they have survived as buddhists for longer than the jews and i have yet to hear of buddhaland.

and even if his statement were accurate, how does that prove the bible is true exactly?

I don't think buddhist is a race.

ksen · 04-29-2009, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve_bnk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tubby Lardmore

This morning on Christian radio I heard part of a message by Pastor Chuck Smith. Googling that name finds this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Smith_(pastor)

which I presume is talking about the same person I heard on the radio.

He casually tossed off this line: "If you want proof that the Bible is true, look at the Jews... No ethnic group could survive for 2,000 years without a homeland, but they did."

The idea of course is that the God of the Bible has protected His chosen people (if we conveniently ignore pogroms and the Holocaust) through supernatural means.

Any comments on this? Is he correct in implying that no other group has pulled off such a feat? What naturalistic explanation could account for their survival?

It is the other way around, if they are the chosen people of god, why have they faired so badly?

And, if JC is the Jewish messia, then all Jews tday are in the wrong..

Not all the Jews are wrong. There are groups of Messianic Jews that believe Jesus is the Messiah.

04-28-2009, 06:02 PM	#1
Tubby Lardmore Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA Posts: 5,470	"If you want proof that the Bible is true..." This morning on Christian radio I heard part of a message by Pastor Chuck Smith. Googling that name finds this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Smith_(pastor) which I presume is talking about the same person I heard on the radio. He casually tossed off this line: "If you want proof that the Bible is true, look at the Jews... No ethnic group could survive for 2,000 years without a homeland, but they did." The idea of course is that the God of the Bible has protected His chosen people (if we conveniently ignore pogroms and the Holocaust) through supernatural means. Any comments on this? Is he correct in implying that no other group has pulled off such a feat? What naturalistic explanation could account for their survival?

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04-28-2009, 06:11 PM	#2
thegdin Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: orlando,fl Posts: 1,240	there are buddhists all over the world too. they have survived as buddhists for longer than the jews and i have yet to hear of buddhaland. and even if his statement were accurate, how does that prove the bible is true exactly?

04-28-2009, 09:48 PM	#4
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	When's the last time the Romani (Gypsy) people had a homeland? They've been wandering, displaced for over 1000 years, and have suffered all the same persecutions the Jews have. They were even put in the death camps. Chuck Smith is spouting nonsense of course. Jumping from Jews surviving as an ethnicity without a political "homeland" (not a unique phenomenon) to "therefore the Bible is true" is a gigantic non-sequitur.

04-29-2009, 04:04 AM	#5
motorhead Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Land of Make Believe Posts: 781	It's proof to him and to many other Christians but it's not proof in the normal sense that most people understand it. I'm quite sure there are histories of the Jewish people written that show how they've survived for 2000 years without a homeland. The claim that behind their survival is God's hand is a faith statement, not proof.

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