Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Onias · 05-06-2013, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Btw, although I entitled this thread "Was the Original Jesus a Militant", I should have put Jesus in quotes: Was the Original 'Jesus' a Militant?

because I was suggesting the original 'Jesus' was not the fictional gospel Jesus but another person, a historical person who inspired the gospel author to create a tale that presented a previous historical person who was largely the antithesis of gospel Jesus.

Name and evidence for the historicity of the figure you are referencing....

Onias, put your cards on the table. Who was this figure that you keep referring to?? Unless you can do this - your talking through your hat!

The model for the fictional JC would obviously be others who were aspiring to be the messiah in that time period. . . . historical people like Judas the Galilean or his sons, Simon or James. Of course these people did not have coins made in their image so you will likely not regard them as historical even though the historian Josephus writes of them.
Onias

aa5874 · 05-06-2013, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Btw, although I entitled this thread "Was the Original Jesus a Militant", I should have put Jesus in quotes: Was the Original 'Jesus' a Militant?

because I was suggesting the original 'Jesus' was not the fictional gospel Jesus but another person, a historical person who inspired the gospel author to create a tale that presented a previous historical person who was largely the antithesis of gospel Jesus.

You need evidence from antiquity to make such a suggestion unless you are dealing with guesswork.

This is BC&H.

Please, tell us the real name of that supposed historical person.

When, where, what?? Where are your sources??

See my reply to Mary.

Btw, everything is guesswork unless we find more manuscripts to confirm our suspicions.

Mythicism as the source for the gospel stories is also guesswork.

Perhaps you deal with guesswork but I do not.

I examine what is found written not what I guessed happen.

The MJ argument is NOT guesswork at all.

It is documented and the evidence has been found in Pristine condition.

Manuscripts of antiquity have been found and it is recorded that the character called Jesus of Nazareth was born of a Ghost and a Virgin after he Created heaven and earth and was also found walking on the sea of Galilee before he transfigured and resurrected.

See the Sinaiticus Codex--it is in Pristine condition.

See http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/

outhouse · 05-06-2013, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

Name and evidence for the historicity of the figure you are referencing....

Onias, put your cards on the table. Who was this figure that you keep referring to?? Unless you can do this - your talking through your hat!

The model for the fictional JC would obviously be others who were aspiring to be the messiah in that time period. . . . historical people like Judas the Galilean or his sons, Simon or James. Of course these people did not have coins made in their image so you will likely not regard them as historical even though the historian Josephus writes of them.
Onias

But with that methodology, the only relationship you have to a HJ or MJ would be that they lived in the same geographic location, but shared no other traits what so ever.

You need more to try and make a real tie even for a mythological connection

Onias · 05-06-2013, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

The model for the fictional JC would obviously be others who were aspiring to be the messiah in that time period. . . . historical people like Judas the Galilean or his sons, Simon or James. Of course these people did not have coins made in their image so you will likely not regard them as historical even though the historian Josephus writes of them.
Onias

But with that methodology, the only relationship you have to a HJ or MJ would be that they lived in the same geographic location, but shared no other traits what so ever.
You need more to try and make a real tie even for a mythological connection

Aha, but they do share traits (or rather the inverse). JC is largely INVERSELY correlated with the actions and sayings of the historical messiah aspirants of that era.
Onias

Onias · 05-06-2013, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

See my reply to Mary.

Btw, everything is guesswork unless we find more manuscripts to confirm our suspicions.

Mythicism as the source for the gospel stories is also guesswork.

Perhaps you deal with guesswork but I do not.

I examine what is found written not what I guessed happen.

The MJ argument is NOT guesswork at all.

It is documented and the evidence has been found in Pristine condition.

Manuscripts of antiquity have been found and it is recorded that the character called Jesus of Nazareth was born of a Ghost and a Virgin after he Created heaven and earth and was also found walking on the sea of Galilee before he transfigured and resurrected.

See the Sinaiticus Codex--it is in Pristine condition.

See http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/

But all of these MSS are narratives of fictional events.

Show us a document that is a "smoking gun", a doc that shows how and why mythicists invented the gospel tales.

At least I can show the gospels are inversely correlated with the DSS.
Onias

aa5874 · 05-06-2013, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

But all of these MSS are narratives of fictional events.

Show us a document that is a "smoking gun", a doc that shows how and why mythicists invented the gospel tales.

At least I can show the gospels are inversely correlated with the DSS.
Onias

Mythology is fiction.

Now, which mauscripts, which documents, which smoking gun, are you going to use to show that "the gospels are inversely correlated with the DSS."?

May I also remind you that the DSS are products of Mythology.

Onias · 05-06-2013, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

But all of these MSS are narratives of fictional events.

Show us a document that is a "smoking gun", a doc that shows how and why mythicists invented the gospel tales.

At least I can show the gospels are inversely correlated with the DSS.
Onias

Mythology is fiction.

Now, which mauscripts, which documents, which smoking gun, are you going to use to show that "the gospels are inversely correlated with the DSS."?

May I also remind you that the DSS are products of Mythology.

Thank you! Mythology is fiction, so let's just not use the word 'mythology' any longer. The term only obfuscates the whole discussion. You could say mythology is speculative fiction.

But to continue, the gospels are largely the inverse of DSS like the War Scroll.

But I agree both the gospels and the DSS speak of religious events and ideas that are fictional (or mythological if we must use that term).
Onias

aa5874 · 05-06-2013, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Thank you! Mythology is fiction, so let's just not use the word 'mythology' any longer. The term only obfuscates the whole discussion. You could say mythology is speculative fiction.

But to continue, the gospels are largely the inverse of DSS like the War Scroll.

But I agree both the gospels and the DSS speak of religious events and ideas that are fictional (or mythological if we must use that term).
Onias

You were asked to produce your sources for your militant character but so far nothing.

Please identify a militant who used to curse Trees to kill them by the roots.

I never heard of a militant who only killed Trees when he was hungry.

Mark 11

Quote:

.....12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry : 13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came , if haply he might find any thing thereon : and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. 14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee here after for ever. And his disciples heard it. ...............20And in the morning, as they passed by , they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away . 22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Jesus was a mythological miltant to plants.

Onias · 05-06-2013, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Thank you! Mythology is fiction, so let's just not use the word 'mythology' any longer. The term only obfuscates the whole discussion. You could say mythology is speculative fiction.

But to continue, the gospels are largely the inverse of DSS like the War Scroll.

But I agree both the gospels and the DSS speak of religious events and ideas that are fictional (or mythological if we must use that term).
Onias

You were asked to produce your sources for your militant character but so far nothing.

Please identify a militant who used to curse Trees to kill them by the roots.

I never heard of a militant who only killed Trees when he was hungry.

Mark 11

Quote:

.....12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry : 13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came , if haply he might find any thing thereon : and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. 14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee here after for ever. And his disciples heard it. ...............20And in the morning, as they passed by , they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. 21And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away . 22And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Jesus was a mythological miltant to plants.

Josephus provides quite a number of historical messiah-aspirants.

Unless there is a coded message that we've been unable to detect, the story of the fictional JC cursing a fig tree is not relevant to the discussion of the militant vs. pacifist JC. It seems extraneous.

The main thing to keep in mind is:

The NT is a rebuttal to the theology of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Onias

aa5874 · 05-06-2013, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Josephus provides quite a number of historical messiah-aspirants.

Who are those historical messiah aspirants provided by Josephus?? Identify them and identify the one who was used as the historical Jesus.

Who did Jesus kill when he was a militant or ask his followers to kill?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onias

Unless there is a coded message that we've been unable to detect, the story of the fictional JC cursing a fig tree is not relevant to the discussion of the militant vs. pacifist JC. It seems extraneous.

How can that be?? You asked if Jesus was a militant so we must see if he killed anything or asked his followers to kill anything in the NT.

Jesus killed a tree when he was hungry. Is it not documented in the Canon??

Jesus killed some demons or caused some demons to be killed when he drowned some pigs. I completely forgot.

Matthew 8:30-32 KJV

Quote:

And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding .

So the devils besought him, saying , If thou cast us out , suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

And he said unto them, Go . And when they were come out , they went into the herd of swine: and, behold , the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

Jesus appears to have tricked some demons.

Would you regard Jesus as a militant because the demons died under his watch?

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