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Old 04-26-2006, 02:00 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Luke says the women told the disciples they had seen an empty tomb and no body. That's in direct contradiction to Matthew (and Mark, for that matter).
What version are you looking at? Luke doesn't tell us any such thing. Luke records NO words from the women to the disciples. That is in direct contradiction to what you claim here.
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I'm saying the accounts are totally unrelated and incompatible and that your attempts at harmonization are reaching and specious and wholly unconvincing.
Admit defeat. You cannot preclude an event as impossible because you do not know enough to do so.

There is nothing to harmonize in this case. You incorrectly label it as a contradiction because YOU think there should have been a mention of an event.
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We're really only talking about one contradiction of many. Do you think you can write up a chronology of everything that happened in all four Gospels without leaving anything out?
I do have a life and I don't think I have to provide any such chronology in this type of setting. If the rest of them are this ridiculous then I have nothing to worry about.
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:05 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by cognac
If your view of the world is true, and mine is not, you absolutely should believe that it is better than mine. Where truth is concerned, there's no patience for any other view. Any view of reality that doesn't correspond to reality is a threat to your survival as a human being.......
Sounds incredibly intolerant.

By definition, we can't even begin to tolerate other people, unless we disagree with their views. We don't tolerate people we agree with. They are on our side. I can only thank God that our country was not founded by people who share your view.
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:06 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Patriot7
Kosh,

DTC has asserted that assertions are not empirical evidence. Ignoring the glaring self-contradictory nature of this statment, and for the sake of advancing the discussion, let's operate as though he is right.

Given DTC's premise, we can categorically exclude the author's assertions as empirical evidence.
But it was you who insisted that modern archaeology disproves TBOM. That same science also disproves the Bible (READ THE BOOK). If you're going to accept DTC's premise, then you can no longer reject the TBOM on the grounds that you stated.

Which is it?

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And as I'm about all out of faith for today, can you provide empirical evidence, married to an argument that starts with a premise and logically flows to the conclusion that you've asserted? - That the OT's claims have been proven false?
It's not necessary, you can read the book!

So far, all you've shown us you can do is evasion through nitpicking.
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:17 PM   #324
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So far, all you've shown us you can do is evasion through nitpicking.
If you can refer me to where I made a formal agreement with any of you to answer every post and every question, no matter how silly and non-sensical, and to reply to every insult, please direct me. Otherwise, please understand I'm not selling Patriot7. If you find my tacitic evasive, perhaps, you can demonstrate how horrible I am by showing everyone how great you are and post an argument that starts with a premise and logically flows to your conclusion supported by empirical evidence?

Otherwise I can only assume you don't have one beyond your implied argument that your view of the evidence is right, because you've read a book. Yeh. So have I. Should I post the books I've read and then you can post another and then I can post another?.....and so on ad nauseum?
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:26 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Patriot7
What is it then?
It's an assertion. assertions, in themselves, are evidence of nothing. Homer says that Oddyseus escaped from a giant, man-eating cyclops. Does that mean we have empirical evidence for the existence of cyclopes?
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DTC has asserted that assertions are not empirical evidence.
They aren't.
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Ignoring the glaring self-contradictory nature of this statment, and for the sake of advancing the discussion, let's operate as though he is right.
There's nothing self-contradictory about it, you just don't know what "evidence" means.
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Given DTC's premise, we can categorically exclude the author's assertions as empirical evidence.
That's correct. We can, however, investigate the claims to see if we can find any empirical evidence to support them.
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And as I'm about all out of faith for today, can you provide empirical evidence, married to an argument that starts with a premise and logically flows to the conclusion that you've asserted? - That the OT's claims have been proven false?
Read the book, The Bible Unearthed. To give a thorough presentation of the evidence and the arguments against such mythical events as the Exodus and the conquest of Canaan cannot be given in a two paragraph post.

When are you going to answer some of those questions you've been ducking?
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:32 PM   #326
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When are you going to answer some of those questions you've been ducking?
When are you going to stop cheating on your taxes?
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:35 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Patriot7
Sounds incredibly intolerant.

By definition, we can't even begin to tolerate other people, unless we disagree with their views. We don't tolerate people we agree with. They are on our side. I can only thank God that our country was not founded by people who share your view.
This has nothing to do with tolerance or freedom of belief. The fact that you throw that in now is completely off base. If you want to have a conversation about freedom, I'll be glad to. However, we're talking about reality here and whether or not worldviews have any correspondence to it.

If a view of reality is correct is it better than another view of reality that is incorrect. It's that simple. I dare say you believe the same. If you get mortally ill, you go to the doctor, not the witch doctor. Given the choice between buying a car built by engineers and one that was constructed based on voodoo, I bet you're going to buy the one built by engineers. There's a clear difference.
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:39 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by buckshot23
What version are you looking at? Luke doesn't tell us any such thing. Luke records NO words from the women to the disciples. That is in direct contradiction to what you claim here.
I think you're dancing, Buckshot. Let's look at the text:
Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
[2] And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
[3] And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
[4] And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
[5] And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
[6] He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
[7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
[8] And they remembered his words,
[9] And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
[10] It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

[11] And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
(KJV)
It says they told "these things" to the apostles. It sounds like you're trying to equivocate by saying that we don't know what "these things" are but clearly they refer to the stuff in the preceding verses. The women go to the tomb. They find the stone rolled away with no body in it. Two angels appear and tell them Jesus is risen. They then go and tell the apostles "all these things." Do you really expect to be taken seriously with your suggestion that Luke just didn't bother to mention an appearance by Jesus to the women and that "all these things" includes that appearance?
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Admit defeat. You cannot preclude an event as impossible because you do not know enough to do so.
I can preclude two or more mutually contradictory claims from being simultaneously true and that's what I'm doing with the resurrection narratives (even though the impossibility of "resurrections" should go without saying.)
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There is nothing to harmonize in this case.
You say that, and yet you decline to show us how these accounts can be reconciled even if there's money in it for you.
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:43 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by cognac
If a view of reality is correct is it better than another view of reality that is incorrect. It's that simple. I dare say you believe the same.
Of course you do, because with the exception of Atheos, all that is posted here is a bunch of arguments congratulating each other for how right you are, but nothing specific to the topic - BC&H. The criticism is supposed to be of the Bible and not "The Bible Unearthed" is it not? Then why not post an argument about the Bible and use "The Bible Unearthed" as a reference? Have you even read the Bible? Or have only read "The Bible Unearthed"?
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Old 04-26-2006, 02:50 PM   #330
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When are you going to stop cheating on your taxes?
You have no evidence and no reason to believe that I cheat on my taxes. I can demonstrate easily that you're avoiding questions.
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