aa5874

But, it is very important that if you claim his followers considered him a true messiah to know if Jesus did anything to be called a true messiah.

Surely it would have been counter-productive or useless for the disciples to call Jesus a true messiah when he was actually regarded as a false messiah by Jews in Judea.

What did Jesus do to be called a true messiah by the disciples and what is a true messiah in Judea?


It was NOT the death of Jesus that started the faith off.

Please, read the Gospels.

When Jesus arrested his disciples ran away and Peter denied ever knowing Jesus and denied any association with Jesus.

And up to the night of the first day of the week after the death of Jesus and his body had vanished, the disciples were hiding for fear of the Jews.

It was the RESURRECTION and the baptism of the HOLY GHOST that propelled the faith after Jesus was killed based on the NT.

But the Gospel Jesus stories contradict you. The disciples ran away when Jesus was arrested and Peter denied ever knowing Jesus. When the disciples and Peter were faced with being arrested and crucified with Jesus they abandon their Lord and Saviour.


So, why have you manufactured your own history? Once you admit that the Synoptics is not credible then you have become an inventor following the very same path as those who wrote the Synoptics.

You invent your own history because you don't like the fabrications in the Synoptics.


But, 300 years is not a short time at all. It is absurd to think that a plan that takes 300 years to come true is a good idea.

And Constantine made a political decision to make Jesus the new God of Rome in the 4th century.

sschlichter

Why not a quiet ascension? Why allow for the appearance that God has abandoned him to a crucifixion?

aa addresses some of the same questions in his post so I will yield to him so you do not have 2 queries of the same nature.

~Steve

Elijah

He just walks off without doing anything and ascends to the sky? He doesn't confront the rulers or just runs off when it gets hot? What does he do if he doesn't sacrifice his life for his fellow man and set that example for others to follow? It doesn't look like God abandoned him because he is doing this intentionally unless you are mistaking his prayer of psalms 22 as a statement of him thinking he's being forsaken. Him giving his life up is the point of the story so taking it out makes it what kind of story now?

It's like you're trying to write religious fan fiction of what you wish would have happened instead of understanding what they say did happen.

I didn't plan on responding to Aa so what questions of his do you share?

sschlichter

I am surprised you feel that giving up his life is the point of the story. I thought we were devising a 300 year take-over of the roman government.

when a person is crucified by those who represent his religion (or at their bidding), he may be considered abandoned by God by many. Muslims managed to take the crucifixion out of the story and the story survived.

My confusion is about how you can justify what you think happened, not over what actually happened.

aa5874

HJers need to explain how Jesus was able to be deified in Jerusalem by Jews when the records show that the Jews have no history of deification.

And even at the supposed time of Jesus, based on Josephus, when Pilate was procurator, the Jews would rather die, have their necks chopped off, than worship effigies of Caesar.

HJers need to explain how Jesus was deified in Jerusalem during the same time Philo, the Jew, was on his embassy to Gaius to argue against worshiping effigies and a man as a God.

The story of Jesus in the NT is that he died and his body was not found when visited and that the disciples were hiding for fear of the Jews after they had fled the scene and Peter had denied ever knowing Jesus.

Now, blasphemy is a capital crime.

It is highly unlikely that Jesus could be deified under these conditions in Jerusalem.

HJers need to explain what happened after Jesus supposedly died but using historical sources not their imagination.

sschlichter

Jesus was rejected by the Jews (for the most part). that is not a problem for all HJers.

Elijah

And giving up his life is part of that plan that took 300 years to overtake Rome and going on 2000 years still without actually freeing the people. Him giving up his life and asking others to do the same is how the message is spread and part of killing the authority. That is if you can get the authority to imitate his submission to the people, which we do see in our politicians here, at least in rhetoric.

He isn’t abandoned if you have read the text and see it was his intention. It probably doesn’t make sense or can be seen as a failure if you don’t read the texts and hear the story second hand like Muhammad and you have to change Jesus from a messiah claimant to a guy just trying to promote a certain understanding of god. This happens a lot with Jesus, where people take him and make him a spokesperson for their beliefs and ignore the messiah aspect because that doesn’t make any sense to them or they think it was added latter by overzealous followers.
Huh? It’s in the text pretty plainly about him sacrificing his life. I still don’t know why this is so difficult for you to accept or what you want the story to say and why.

sschlichter

now that is quite a statement considering the source. I have seen you pull 200 years of Christians into the land of make-believe to deal with historical sources.

sschlichter

the story also says he resurrected. that is the only reason I can see the author insisting he was crucified. if the author was making up the fact that he resurrected, then why not do a better job and just skip the whole bloody mess. Why allow him to appear cursed if you are trying to raise him up as a messianic leader?

~steve

Elijah

I'm just not able to grasp what you are expecting here. Do you want him to still be alive at the end of the story, ruling the world? How should the story have went from your perspective?

Making up the idea that you saw him after he died is fairly easy but making up what actually happened in history and what would still be expected to be happening in history, if he was supposed to still be alive, is a lot more difficult. For example, it's easy for Peter to say that Jesus called him his rock without too much worry of being corrected but he couldn't say that he didn't abandon Jesus because he has to explain why he is still alive.

Jesus only appears cursed if you are biased towards that belief. I think if you gave the text a plain reading (considering what is possible) you would see a guy with a messiah complex and a death wish trying to establish an anti-king example for some people who were convinced or speculating that he was the messiah.