Krosis

just a small aside here..

the "golden rule" actually predates christianity by centuries.. though I don't know the exact timeframe..

we now return to your regularly scheduled discussion.

-cheers

Lanakila

Theologically, I have more things that you disagree with fundies on that I can list. The teaching that everyone deserves hell for example. That the heathen (everyone not a Christian) is going to hell when they die, and that the Bible is word for word literally true. It is of course you own convictions that will guide you on whether to set others straight, but since these theological doctrines are abhorant to most liberal Christians, you are really on the side of the atheist when it comes to these points, most of the time.

Karalora

Lanakila, you left out:

Institutionalizing a view of gender roles that denies women the right to full financial and social independence.

Forbidding the dissemination of information regarding contraception and reproductive health to unmarried people.

Viti

Liberal and fundamentlist Christians read the same Bible, but intepret it differently. The only reason a Liberal Christian should "stand up" to a fundamentalist is if they feel that the fundamentalists are misrepresenting Christianity as a whole, or badly misintepreting the Bible.

For instance, some fundamentalists condone and celebrate the murder of abortion doctors. Some extremists look at "Thou shall not commit murder"and then intepret murder as only "unjustified" or "unlawful" killing, and therefore justified killing is okay and killing an abortion doctor is justified and so not murder. A liberal Christian may want to take the stance that it is not justified, or rebuke the extremists for judging.

braces_for_impact

Back when I used to post on religious boards, I noticed that the more liberal Christians, although they dissagreed with fundamentalists on many issues, never seemed to directly challenge them. We also don't see it much in public, at least that I can remember.

Of the topics I've seen dissagreements on...

Evolution (and all that goes with it, it's existence, teaching in school, etc)

Church/State seperation issues

Homosexuality

Biblical inerrancy

Baptism

Communion

There are probably more, they just don't come to mind at the moment.

Now in a chat room or message board, when these topics come up, I have watched a Christian debate tooth and nail with an atheist/agnostic/muslim, whatever. But if a dissagreement begins with a fundamentalist, it rarely reaches the debate stage. There is usually a statement by the liberal Christian that they dissagree, and then the thread is abandoned. Perhaps I am just remembering the "hits" and forgetting the "misses" here, but I doubt it.

Now in public, we have had fundamentalists say a great many things that make them seem insensitive and biggoted, to say the least. Whenever these things are said, and these fundamentalist claim to be speaking for Christianity (as they often do) where are the more liberal minded Christians? They don't seem to be writing letters in response to this type of thing to periodicals. They don't seem to be writing to their congress persons. They don't call talk shows and complain. They don't air commercials saying "This preacher is a tard!" But they will air a commercial wanting you to come to their church, or asking you to donate money to some worthy cause.

I won't speculate on why this takes place too much. I did want to ask certain Christians why they don't seem to stand up to fundamentalist, but that could have been seen to single out someone on the board, and I felt that was tacky.

But I do know one thing. Christians, especially liberal ones I notice, are constantly complaining about the church. The church is divided, the church needs to come together, the Christian religion needs to congregate, etc. Could it be that liberal Christians in general do not want to appear divided? I could see how as a Christian, to appear divided could be frightening. It could mean weakness, and many Christians seem to think they're losing their religion to a secular world already. Appearing divided could cast doubt on Christianity's claim to hold "The Truth". I can see many reasons why this might be problematic, but I am only supposing here, I don't really know.

Why do so many Christians take such a "hands off" policy even when they dissagree?

Obviously not all Christians take this approach. I have seen a few here stand up to a fundamentalist. They just seem the exception rather that the rule.

Hazel-rah

I've often wondered if liberal Christian silence stems from a secret suspicion that the fundies are somehow more "virtuous" or "right" than they are. The only other alternative to that view is to think that fundies are wrong, and that leads to Dargo's apt conclusion.

trendkill

The question as I see it isn't whether liberal Christians should stand up to fundamentalists, it's whether atheists should distinguish between the two. Many liberal Christians on this board appear to be of the opinion that they should. Atheists have put forth criteria that they would accept for making the distinction, such as anti-fundamentalist activism.

If the liberal Christians want to convince the atheists to make the distinction between them and fundamentalists, they must either show that such criteria have been met or persuade the atheists that there are better criteria to judge by.

Viti

Another point I have seen is judging another person's salvation. Fundamentalists appear to be far more likely to judge whether others are "True Christians" or apostates, or lukewarm, or hellbound or plain wrong. I don't know the verse, but I believe there is something about Jesus saying some would call out Lord, but never knew him.

Lanakila

I do know that fundie Christians for the most part don't consider liberal Christians to be Christians at all. They consider them to be part of the lost, and that is why their opinions on issues are similar to the atheist/agnostic/unbeliever. Maybe the liberals just get tired of defending their own faith. I know I would. I personally as a fundie thought Seebs and Annabel and other liberal Christians weren't in the club, because they didn't believe the right way, and have seen them accused by fundie's of not being true Christians over and over.

BioBeing

Obviously they (the fundamentalists) do speak up (and very vocally) for what they believe in.

One of the problems with this discussion, as you yourself have pointed out, is that there is no defintion of "liberal" christian. If a liberal Xian does not believe in a literal translation of the bible, but wont say what they really do believe, then what is the point? We are back at square one - with them being lumped in with the Xians who DO speak up. Who, on the whole, tend to be the fundies...

SO: What is a liberal Christian? What do they (as a group, as best as can be told) believe in as far as Church-State separation, YEC, beating/stoning bad children/abortion/gay rights/10C monuments in court houses? Do they use the bible to back up these positions, or do they do so inspite of what the bible says? (I'm not the Christian here (and never was), so I really don't know).

Further: What biblical passages does a liberal Christian use to justify being a liberal (as opposed to a fundamental) Christian?