EthnAlln

Well said, TomboyMom! I'm very surprised that a person as rational as Gamera would put forward such a bizarre theory in opposition to what scholars really know based on language style, comparative reading of documents, and converging accounts of human history. It is just completely out of court to say the Vedas are post-Jesus.

Sheshbazzar

Talking about Suffer1ing, spin;
You are offering up the same tired old "political solutions", to the worlds "suffer1ing" that has been blathered on about by the "political" for the last 6 millennium of history, political agenda after political agenda, throughout your life, and as far back as history records; Lets see, today, Georgie is your excuse, he replaced Billie, who was the problem, who replaced George Sr. who was at fault, who replaced.....and so on, and on, and on.
So your "solution" to "suffer1ing" is to forward more hundreds of millions of dollars to support a politician or party that has the "right" political answer.
Just goes to prove that you are still gullible enough to believe that the working ethics of US and International politics are going to substantially change.
Political tyrants that victimize their peoples are a sad fact of life, send your cash to the party of your choice, and it is guaranteed that a substantial portion of that contribution will be spent by that party to support and to maintain the tyrants in power that serves the political ends of said party.

In many cases, humanity does require pennies worth of "handouts" just to survive, because of the politicians the "politically active" have voted into power in each respective country, and who manage the aid and assistance dollars, have "managed" to line their own pockets with the hundreds of millions of dollars that were voted to assist the suffer1ing.
Hasn't worked yet obviously, though there have been hundreds of attempts involving uncountable billions of dollars.
Without political corruption we would have lifted the world out of poverty a dozen times over.
Looking at that long and miserable record of political corruption by ALL of the political entities of all of the nations, I find it to be much more efficient and morally supportable, to donate to small non-political, non-profit, volunteer orgaizations.
Better a pennies worth of food in the hand of him that is starving, than a million dollar political contribution that just never gets around to trickling down to the suffer1ing poor.
A small donation today, could actually be feeding and clothing the suffer1ing by next week, a huge political contribution today, will not likely result in any reliefe this year, next year, or ever. Your money, your life, your choice.

spin

There is a reason for your political alienation, Sheshbazzar. You live in a society which makes sure you feel politically alienated and so you don't put any support in the political system because you believe there is little to achieve in doing so. This is very convenient for the military industrial complex: the fewer participants in the political the easier it is for them to do things. This is also very convenient for other policy interested groups, because they don't seriously have to consider issues such as health care, work place protection, child support, and internal poverty. They don't have to waste money on you because you don't expect them to, because you are politically alienated. This is how the hand-out system comes up. The government doesn't look after its population, unless you consider food stamps, so there have developed tangential means through the few caring in the society. This is merely a surrogate for non-existent governmental action.

Worse of course than the wilful disregard for the internal population this system has an even lower regard for people in other countries. This again is because of your political alienation.

As I've said for every person helped by Peter and friends, George and his cadres kill a score. Doesn't your political alienation kill them?


spin

Jedi Mind Trick

Presumably god needs freely chosen love relationship with the creature.
Makes me think… this god needs a love relationship sooooooo badly that he is willing that the majority of his potential love toys will burn in hell.

Jedi Mind Trick

As I understood it, the high premium that Yahweh puts on faith was due to its non-meritorious nature. Faith puts trust in the object of faith and this is called godliness. It is also a gift given by Yahweh to whomever he wills. My problem with this argument is that it is more Yahwistic cruelty to those who do not have the “gift.”

When it is being used to defend divine hiddeness it also fails to impress me. There are plenty of examples in the bible where god is visible and active and faith was still exercisable. So if he could manifest for them and not invalidate faith then why not manifest for all?

Instead, from where I am setting, not only do I not see positive manifestations of the bible god but I see “manifestations” in science, nature, history and archeology (thanks Patriot7 ) that contradict any positive truth claim of the bible god.

Has Yahweh created a universe that contradicts him? If so, why, and is that faith worthy?

-John

Loomis

Good work. :thumbs:

James Brown

This is incorrect. In Numbers 31, the soldiers came back from yet another genocidal slaughter, and Moses was outraged that they hadn't killed everyone.

I have a hard time accepting that your God, who as you say is trying to teach these people to be merciful, would then angrily insist that they be less merciful.

I'm curious...is there anything you would accept as evidence against the idea that God is loving and merciful? I don't mean in the past, even a hypothetical future will do. Let your imagination go wild. What would God have to do in order for you to say, "That's evil"?

Sheshbazzar

[1] Yes, you have misunderstood. The incident was in one specific time, those particular babies were, because of what was coming, removed from experiencing a lifetime of degradation and misery.

[2]No, "this logic" that you are trying to force is faulty, and not applicable, And "the same is not true for me, being in a different time, and in different circumstances, and under a different, and a better Covenant.
However, ALL babies, (and some adults) become "better off in heaven than on earth", which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone with the least bit of acquaintance with the Bible.
Just a repetition of the fact that you have misunderstood my standards. You use the word "justified" a lot, What causes to be, is always fully justified, and requires no excuses nor justifications by mortals.
Again trying to force your misunderstanding unto me, YHWH never "acts wrongly", justice and the right of ultimate judicial decision is His, no mortal may overturn His will.
In the Courts of this land, appointed judges issue decisions on sometimes hard issues, being called before one of these mortal judges, men may at times be displeased and find fault with his decision, and being grieved that the decision was not "justified", appeal it to a Higher Court, and if the Higher Court finds the decision "justified", it stands.
But because the use of "justice" among men is notoriously abused, the Highest Courts in the land may render decisions that are not just, and that are not justified, but yet become the Law, binding upon all.
For this, there has always been the concept of a Higher Judge, whose decisions are always final, and always right, and always justified.
Whatever YHWH decides, (who is not a man, that He should error as a mortal judges do), is justified

YHWH is not a man, and your "morals" are not His, your perceptions and reasoning powers are too limited to impose your tiny little limited ideas of what constitutes moral behavior upon a Power that apprehends the extents of time, the breadth of the universe, and the thoughts and the intents of every heart among mankind.
He makes the choices and the decisions that HE alone has weighed and decided as being in the best interest of all mankind.
Whatever YHWH does, (who is not a man, that He should make moral errors as mortal men do) is moral.
There is none among the children of men more moral than their Judge, Maker, and Sustainer.
You are not YHWH, so yes, it would be wrong for you to do what He did, or what He ordered those under His command that day to do;
Again, you are not Him, this is not that day, He has not given to you any such order or commandment, but the good commandment that He has given to you, you have despised.

[QUOTE]
Although I disagree with your conclusion about The Bible, the rest is true
Not a matter of "Which is it?", that was THEN, and this is NOW.
The Israelites were right and justified in obeying a direct order from The Commander of all of The Army of Israel, in submitting to the ultimate decision and authority of Their Supreme Commander, and final Judge.
I answered this above, following of the order was both "right", and "moral" on the basis that The Commander of the Hosts of Israel is The Ultimate Authority and Judge.
Any soldier that does not obey the express orders of his Supreme Commander, and of his Government is guilty of committing treason.

Well yes, now that you mention it. doing all of what they did "in another name", just as they were prophesied to be found doing "in another name".

Interesting how DO you define "quite common", about how many does it take to make it "quite common"?
"ONE of them ..on a rampage in Africa right now"?
Wow! your supporting statistics are just staggering!
No comment on all of those people of Yahweh, scattered throughout the world, who have lived out their lifetimes peaceably with their neighbors leading quiet and productive lives, guilty only of loving and helping their fellow man?
Other than the part about your being "pretty sure he's only a fictional character" (As I am absolutely convinced that He is as real as reality) is, and your traditional miscount on the number of animals spared,
I agree that He holds the ultimate record for genocide and ecocide.
So what? He creates, and He destroys what He has created, He builds up, and He also tears down that which He has built.
It is all His, to do with as he will, He has no obligation to you, unless He chooses to obligate Himself to you by making a Covenant with you.
Have you entered into an Agreement, or into a Covenant with Him?
Then what basis can you claim that He owes you anything beyond what He has already provided for you to bring you to the abundance that is in your possession this day? Why should He give to you any exemption from Him proceeding with the normal course of His business?
He gives you today, your daily bread, and you gorge yourself, and mock His providence. He provides you with water to quench your thirst, but you use it to spit at His face, even the poor of the earth.

I am only one small man, but it certainly appears to me, that the time is again coming, and is fully ripe, for The Landlord of this land, to once again evict the unthankful ungrateful squatters, ungracious guests, and the unworthy tenants of this age from the earth, who while wallowing in abundance say, "The Cruelty of Yahweh, the cruelty of Yahweh"

Gamera

[QUOTE=JamesABrown]It's ironic you should cite this verse. Look carefully. Who gives the order to kill the Midianite women and children. Carefully now. Moses does. Not God. Here, read for yourself:


Moses said to them, "Have you let all the women live? 16 Behold, these caused the people of Israel, by the counsel of Balaam, to act treacherously against the LORD in the matter of Pe'or, and so the plague came among the congregation of the LORD. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. 19 etc, etc. etc.

Moses doesn't even say God commanded this scorched earth policy. He just gives what he thinks is the rationale for it. He personally orders them to kill kill kill. He clearly enjoyed it.

Here's what we're told God actually commanded:

Numbers 25:17 - "Harass the Mid'ianites, and smite them;

Numbers 31:2 - "Avenge the people of Israel on the Mid'ianites; afterward you shall be gathered to your people."

Moses, being a brute like the rest of us, took God's command and turned it into a scorched earth policy. You've made my point exactly.

Gamera

Be curious no more. If God commanded in the NT what he commanded in the OT, I'd say he was evil. We don't have to look any further. That's why the NT overturns the OT, transforming its meaning from history to spiritual identity.

Jesus teaches we must love our enemies. John says God is love. Paul teaches that love is preeminent even over faith. That's how Christianity overcame and transformed the brutality of history as understood in the OT.