dongiovanni1976x

You wouldn't understand, for it is foolish to you. If you were of the elect you would not need to ask such a silly question. (1 Cor 2:14) You must accept that God made you for dishonorable purposes and made Luther for honorable purposes (Rom 9:21). :angel: :devil1: :angel:

Nuwanda

This thread has taken off in an interesting direction and it is now basically a discussion about predestination. Here are my thoughts: if God knows the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning doesn't it stand to reason that if He gave free-will to mankind and each man and woman made their eternal choices to follow God or not follow God, wouldn't God know from the beginning which ones chose to follow Him and which didn't? With that knowledge will He not indeed "choose" those who have followed Him to be conformed to His image and receive the kingdom?

This looks like predestination from a earthly point of view but the apparently "elect" state of believers is easily understood as a result of their faith in Christ through an act of their own will if the above is considered. You quoted "many are called, but few are chosen" if taken from Christ's words in Matthew 22:14, after the man found at the feast was thrown out due to him not wearing the wedding garment, this idea is understood completely. Everyone was called to come to the feast but some would not come due to their own desires to keep up their business (22:5) and some would not take on the covering which was expected of all the wedding guests (22:11) and they were excluded from the feast. None of those who were excluded were excluded due to the choice of the king, but rather on account of their own decisions.

RED DAVE

Riiiiiiiiiiight!

I'm a teacher. If I see, in advance, that one of my students is likely to fail, and I don't make the extra effort to work with that person, a portion of what happens is on me.

And if you think that god's signalling system, and his "help system" are okay as to who passes and who fails, you need new glasses.

RED DAVE

dongiovanni1976x

The dilemma is when you compare Romans 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Luke 23:34. The natural world of creation is empirically visible to the natural man mentioned in 1 Cor 2:14. But the “invisible spirit” which created this empirical phenomena mentioned in Romans 1:20 is foolish to him. Thus Jesus would ask that they be forgiven for being created dishonorable vessels (Rom 9:21). For only the clay that is molded for honorable and righteous purposes will ever make sense out of the foolishness the natural man sees in the invisible spiritual realm where God operates. He is ignorant of the power behind creation and purely at God’s mercy. And Paul knows that we shouldn’t question why God has mercy on some and not others (Rom 9:18). Hopefully Jesus/God asks himself to have mercy on those who are created for dishonorable purposes and thus hardened by Him to be ignorant- and therefore worthy of Jesus/God’s mercy. (very circular and illogical- not to mention unjust)

Chili

Oh my gosh, we're pointing fingers already.

Nuwanda

Without going into a complete hermeneutic breakdown of Romans chapter 9, let it suffice, for now, that 9:22 sheads light on the whole issue, "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction..."

Why does Paul preface the whole matter as a hypothetical scenario? Much could be said about God "hardening" Pharaoh's heart and the likes. Is He creating Pharaoh's resistence or simply standing by Pharaoh's resistence just as He stands behind our decision to deny Him if we choose? Is the hardening similar to the description Paul gives in chapter one of those who resist God and declare themselves wise in the process? "God gave them up to... the lusts of their hearts..." (1:24) which increased the intensity of their rebellion. The point is, I believe Paul is giving a hypothetical scenario to say "even if God was this way, He's still God, deal with it." That's Paul's style.

dongiovanni1976x

This is not a conditional/hypothetical. Paul is saying in v. 3 that he could wish himself cursed for the sake of his brethren who are ignorant of the spuernatural but it is not his place to question God. Paul is stating that it is normal to be upset that some will not be molded into honorable vessels for the Lord but he is saying, "Who are you to question the potter?" (v. 20)

V. 22 says, Paul is asking, What if God, instead of showing His wrath, patiently endured the vessels (the dishonorable pots etc) which he prepared for destruction?

There are vessels which God prepared for mercy and those that he prepared for destruction. Paul is saying we have no right to get upset if some of our brethren are molded for ignoble purposes while we are crafted for righteousness.

Nuwanda

Again, we would have to do a full interpretation breakdown of chapter 9 (and possibly the whole book) to make any sure case of either one of our cases. But here's another point to consider, (and I'm not dismissing your responses, I'm still convinced that Paul is stating a hypothetical and not the reality of the situation but I need to make another point to clarify why I'm convinced of it): verse 24 clarifies who Paul is speaking of when he says that some were prepared beforehand for glory - 1. the Jews (which all Jews would agree with at the time), and 2. also the gentiles (since Christ has now openned a way for them to come to the Father).

Any orthodox Jew, like Paul, would tell you that the Jews were prepared ahead of time for glory, yet most, including Paul, would admit that not all Jews would turn out to be glorified. In fact, most Jews would in the end turn out to forsake God and be rejected by God even though they were prepared for glory (as demonstrate throughout the OT especially through the prophets). Just because they were given the oracles of God and entrusted with His spirit there was no guarantee that they would find favor with Him. Paul makes this clear time and time again explaining that the true righteous seed of Abraham was not, as the Jews supposed, those of the physical circumcision, but those of the spiritual circumcision made through faith in Christ (Rom 4:1-17). In other words, being prepared for glory does not ensure that the recipients would be glorified. The vessel is still responsible for choosing the "glorification" by choosing to believe, just as the "doomed" vessel must choose to participate with that which causes destruction - unbelief.

Unless you believe that faith is predestined for some and not for others, your argument doesn't work. If you do believe that faith is a precondition then you must make God the author of confusion and every evil work which contradicts the whole body of scripture. I'm sure this is why atheists love to debate Calvinists, there is a never ending supply of contradictions.