livius drusus

Well I wouldn't saying listening to Slayer is all that pejorative, but in any case if they claimed to be atheists that is sufficient. I'm not seeking a true scotsman; I simply saw no evidence in your previous post that the people you were talking about were actually atheists beyond their not attending church.

I hope my above clarification covers this as well.

I agree. My personal experiences with religion have been generally innocuous, and I went to Catholic school for 12 years. The environment of my formative years is without question the single greatest reason for my current views on religion. I appreciate the positive aspects (Catholic art, Quaker pacifism, your childhood church's civic committment) just as I rail against the negative ones (obsession with sexual morality/control, divisive rhetoric of saved v. damned, battering ram conversion tactics on a personal and sociopolitical level).

Thank you, but I know you're just saying that because I haven't brought up the ossuary yet.

In all seriousness, I believe it is essential both to decent human interaction and to the mission of the Secular Web that we not take umbrage at the mere expression of belief just because that belief may be associated in our minds with a wide assortment of horrors. Painting everybody with one brush is not only the very definition of bigotry, but it makes for endlessly boring conversation.

Starboy

Your kidding me right? Bullies don't give a rats a** about reason.

Anyway if you want to demonize me to make your point then have at it, but as long as I am allowed to post on IIDB if I come across theist that do not respect my right to think as I wish and see it as their duty to "save" me then they are gonna get a piece of my mind. You theists know who you are and it is pretty much most of you.

Starboy

livius drusus

You are equivocating again. When I asked you before to explain when in your opinion a Christian crossed the lined from expressing a point of view into bullying, you replied:

Here you seem capable of distinguishing between people and their beliefs. Not very well, mind you, as you require that they have "no problem" with your contempt for their religion (a contempt traditionally accompanied by all kinds of vitriolic rhetoric which apparently does not qualify as bullying in your worldview) in order to be acceptable Christians, but nonetheless, you grudgingly admit to their existence.

Now you say that Christianity alone makes someone a bully because the belief system is unreasonable. So which is it? Does the approach matter or not?

seebs

This is a delightful rant, but totally ignores the question.

Do you believe that practicing something is advocating it?

It's just a yes/no question, and I'm not asking what you think about separation of church or state, or any other issues which, while fascinating, are not on point.

brighid

No, they don't care about reason. I did not say they did. However, bullies tend to back off when they are challenged by a group of people and bullies don't continue to bully when a small or large group of individuals (and even an individual himself) does not tolerate that behavior.

Who is demonizing you? Discussing the ramifications of your behaviors and attitudes is hardly "demonizing YOU."

There are plenty of people, theist or otherwise, that will not respect another's right to think, act, worship, etc. but your track record has been that you attack theists for being theists, whether they have expressed a disrespect for your right to think or not. Since proselytizing is against the rules I don't understand your fear, given that no person here has the ability to harm you in any way through the discussion we have here.

B

seebs

And here, you show that you have exactly the same response to *all* Christians, no matter who they are, that you are complaining about people having towards *all* atheists, no matter who they are.

The disease is not a given belief system; it's the demonization of others. You seem to have caught it.

seebs

Then, in the world we live in, you haven't got a problem with Christianity, only with some particular groups.

Ahh, yes. Starboy's favorite tactic; put the word "truth" in scare quotes to indicate that it's got the special Starboy-meaning, in which it's a bad word which can never be adequately defined, but is clearly Bad And Outmoded, like every other aspect of human experience or philosophy which predates the 1900's.

Do you consider Christianity "just as valid" as your own views? Of course not; you think it's *false*.

The majority of Christians have no objection to the existance or practice of other religions, just as most atheists have no objection to the existance or practice of any religions. That doesn't mean other things are "valid" or "true" - just that most people can deal with other people disagreeing with them on philosophical matters.

Unfortunately, there is a core problem, not easily resolved, which is that as soon as there's a group of people with a common label, it's very easy to paint them all with one broad stroke of a brush. Just as you can casually dismiss all Christians as being just like the bogeyman of the day (are we still on Falwell?), many Christians fall into the same trap, and judge all atheists as being just like... Oh, pick anyone. It doesn't matter much, after all, atheists are all alike, right?

The perpetual source of amazement to me is that people can be horribly offended at being lumped in with other members of their group, and yet, turn around and do the same thing to other groups.

seebs

If you have been through such times, how is it possible that you cannot tell them apart from the times we live in now?

Pay attention! Today, extremists are opposed, and, at least in the US, people are not generally killed, imprisoned, or tortured for not sharing the right philosophy.

Curiously, the philosophies which have done the best job of enforcing such standards were not religious ones, but economic ones. When love of power is unconstrained by occasional inconvenient words of hope in old books, it's much more dangerous.

seebs

Exactly! If you want enemies, they can be invented by the thousands. That doesn't mean they were there before you started looking.

seebs

Indeed, a lot of them reject the very underyling concepts of reason.

You probably ought to switch that chip from one shoulder to the other occasionally, so it doesn't permanently bend your spine.