WishboneDawn

They aren't. The roots of the dates and some of the practices of those holidays may be pagan but I'm pretty sure it's jesus who plays the big role these days.

Helo

Actually to a certain extent, they are.

Many of the practices on Easter and Christmas are reminiscent of pagan practices that pre-date Christianity.

Take a look at easter, what the hell does eggs and bunnies have to do with Jesus?

Amaleq13

Common experiences combined with common psychology result in similar mythology incorporating the two.

FatherMithras

Archetypes. Read some Joseph Campbell. Good stuff. Regardless, the cultures DID meet.

You don't know the difference between Semites and Jews? Jews= semites but semites do not equal jews.

Except we know from history and archaelogy the Jews stayed put. I'm also claiming the exodus happened, just not to the Jews, and that's supported by the history and all the evidence. You need to look at the sources I've given.

Please go read the Bible dude. The first stuff we have about the Jews in Egypt has them as a ruling class until the new pharoah gets pissed at them and thinks they're getting too powerful. Regardless, mythology evolves and that's why we have the differences. Look at the difference of Eve and the serpent in genesis as compared to their earlier middle eastern counter parts for example.


False. By and large, they believed what they put down. You claim it's metaphors because it's so ridiculous. You forget they wrote these things down often hundreds of years after the fact. Throughout the history of the peoples they took them as literal truth. Go look at the history of the Romans, Jews, etc for examples. You're making inferences not supported by the academics and history.

Go read the arguments the church fathers used and you'll change your mind. What your stating sounds reasonable, but when you read how the people came tot he conclusions, its due to myths crossing over, or keeping a part of them. They were influenced by older myths and assumed a grain of truth. They didn't decide "Hey lets trick these guys by being utterly blasphemous and masking the true dates of the most iportant aspects of our faith."

Go read anyone who's studied mythology in depth.

You make alot of logical inferences that simply don't follow the facts. It's not uncommon for people to think that way. However, upon an in depth, academic study from numerous experts most of your claims fade away. You seem to not agree with the burden of proof and believe we should take completely unsupported stories written hundreds of years after the fact as reliable, despite the fact they can more logically be attributed to cultural idea sharing. Look at the Flood stories and such for more examples. Almost all cultures have some similar myths due to common human experience and archetypes. One of the best people for explaining this, who has an incredible knowledge of mythology and even helped translate some of the world's oldest mythos is Joseph Campbell. Go read him right now. I promise you won't regret it.

QRUEL

out of curiosity... is there any historical evidence outside of the bible that these 10 plagues even happened ?

Helo

The events wouldnt have been seen as related back then, so its doubtful there is one single record that collects all the plauge stories. However the Nile turning red was a rare event and the Egyptians wrote EVERYTHING down. Unfortuneately, we have lost countless thousands of Egyptian records to time, human malice, and accidents. It may very well be that the record of one or two of the "plauge" events is either destroyed or waiting to be found.

Thats an interesting theory, but how does psychology give rise to mythical belief?

Had I the time I would indulge. However Im still trying to get through The Book of the Dead (its actually very interesting if you read it) AND find a job.

Oh? You have evidence that the ancient Chinese and the Mayans met?

Quite true, my error

Again, there is no record of the Hyksos ever FLEEING anywhere, theres plenty of record of them INVADING. The Hyksos invaded, the Jews fled.

The Jews did not have power in Egypt untill the Roman times. The area that came to be known as Judea was under Persian control, then when Persia fell to Rome, it gave Judea as a client state. The Jews were given some measure of control by the Romans.

Then how do you explain stories like Joanah? Theres no way a sane ANYBODDY from ANY time period would take that as literal.

Most academics (for the most part) agree that many of the holidays we celebrate today are remnants of pagan holidays that were infused with Christian tradition to assist in peaceful conversion.

A letter from 601 A.D written by Pope Gregory basically said "If you see pagans dancing around a tree, do not cut the tree down. Instead consecrate this tree to Christ and let them continue to worship."

They could also be due to a large localized flood event leading people to believe the whole earth had been flooded.

I look at old myths and stories as having maybe some grain of truth in them or having been based (Albeit much exaggerated in many cases) in real events. Very few people in the ancient world wrote "just making it up."

Look back in history, we dont start to see COMPLETELY made up stuff untill maybe a thousand years ago. Even writers in Ancient Greece who wrote satire wrote it in a realistic sense.

Doug Shaver

I'm familiar with several of them. Please explain how they constitute evidence for a historical background for any story in the Bible.

Amaleq13

Humans are generally social by nature and, as a byproduct, story-tellers.

Similar minds tell similar stories about similar events.

FatherMithras

Until we have any confirmation of the plagues, we have to say "No, there's no confirmation of it."

No offense, but this is a pretty basic bit of psychology when you read early stuff by Jung and such. Archetypes anyone?

Ah! I thought you meant the Hyksos and the Hebrews! Are you using the flood example? Are you trying to say there was a worldwide flood?

Ummm... No. The Hyksos were driven out of Egypt by an uprising of native Egyptians. That's a pretty gaping error in your knowledge of the Hyksos. They Hyksos did in fact flee Egypt after the uprising against them. I'm not saying their stories are identical, I'm saying that the cultures shared mythology like many cultures have been shown to do, and after hundreds of years it evolvedf in a new way as a result of the culture and previous mythos. Not uncommon and totally supported by the evidence.

Ummm... Have you read the Bible? The story I told was directly from it. According to the Jews they were the unofficial rulers for a time and the Pharoah was only the figurehead. This never actually happened, but it IS the jewish mthos.

Umm... no. People had NO idea how whales physiology worked or anything about them. You are using modern common sense built off thousands of years of study and knowledge instead of assuming an absolutely primitive mindset.

Yes, except the Chinese and the Mayans wouldn't have been in the same area. It's localized floods (common experience) being exxagerated through an archetype to form a myth.

I look at it the same way. The difference is you assume you cand etermine it in the absence of evidence. Stories and myths get handed down, twisted, and exxagerated to explain natural events and morality. To claim they weren't believed in is baseless, as the history of the people's can attest to.

Seriously suggest reading some scholars. Are you claiming the classic vagina with teeth story has a basis in reality?

Johnny Skeptic

If the plagues actually occurred, surely they would have shown up in documents other than Jewish documents.