Toto

dzim77: can you provide specific Biblical references for these assertions? Especially that justice requires punishment?

greyline

... and how God's brand of justice is different from revenge?

DaBuster

It is an incredible sacrifice if you are a human dying for another human since, in the immortal words of William Munny (Clint Eastwood) in Unforgiven, “you take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.” Even if the sacrificee is a true believer who thinks that he’s going on to a better place, I suspect that all but the saintliest believer is going to have at least a smidgen of doubt that there’s nothing awaiting him on the other side of death. On the other hand, if Jesus was truly the immortal son of God, then he knew before it even happened that all that his “sacrifice” would entail was that he would have to endure one particularly unpleasant 3-day weekend as compared to the eternity of weekends he would spend basking in his "glory incarnate".

fatpie42

That one is particular hard to answer.

Still, in the past justice has long been about punishment, not rehabilitation. God's justice seems to be no different. Naturally I'm presuming that God is a construction of a certain kind of society rather than an objective entity.

dzim77

Here's the primary description of God's character as revealed to the Israelites in the OT...

And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation." Exodus 34:6-7

"He is the Rock, his works are perfect,
and all his ways are just.
A faithful God who does no wrong,
upright and just is he. "
Deuteronomy 32:4

The appropriate 'wage' or deserved result of sin is spiritual death and separation from God...

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Here's the main doctrine which I was attempting to explain... summarized here by Paul...

"19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." Romans 3:19-26[/I]

The cross also demonstrates God's love

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:6-8


I can list more verses if you'd like or if you feel these are not sufficient... just let me know

dzim77

Well, God's wrath against sin IS actually referred to as 'vengance' in some versions of the Bible.

But, I can explain how God's justice is very different than the idea of a human taking revenge on another human... which seems to be what you are asking.

First of all, the primary essence of God according to Bible is that God is HOLY. Holy means 'completely and wholly other', 'separate', also means, 'pure, blameless, morally pure in essence'. In other Words, God is transcendant. He is not on our level. He is sooo far above us, he is not like us in essence, he is divine. This is the KEY to understanding the God of the Bible.

So, when you think of one human being taking revenge on another human being out of spite or anger, that seems wrong - and it is wrong according to the Bible, because - who are you, a sinner, to take it upon yourself to seek revenge against another sinner?? However, we cannot take this idea of man-on-man revenge and transpose it to God and say... 'God is evil and spiteful and seeks revenge when he is wronged'. We can't judge God as if he is a human.

*an interesting side note... the reason the Bible gives for not seeking revenge against another person is because 'vengance is the Lord's' In other words we should not take revenge into our own hands but instead humble ourselves, realizing our own sins and trust that justice will ultimately be done in God's eyes.*

So... God is holy, so he has every right to judge, condemn, and punish sinners. He is perfectly just to do so. He is not a petty, bitter, corrupt judge with a chip on his shoulder. He is holy and just to punish sin. This is the picture the Bible paints of God's justice.

dzim77

If you don't understand the concept of the Holiness of God, then you don't even begin to understand the God of the Bible.

If you understand the Holiness of God... then the idea that God would sacrifice himself for sinful creatures is beyond amazing and the greatest sacrifice known to man.

If you want to discredit the Bible or say that you don't believe in God, that's one thing...but if you're taking the Bible seriously and you're talking about the God of the Bible and saying that Jesus' sacrifice wasn't meaningful, then you just don't understand the Bible.

greyline

Actually, we can. Otherwise these concepts have no meaning.

"Justice" means "righteousness, the administering of deserved punishment or reward".

When we magnify "justice" up to infinite proportions, we get "divine justice", which means "evil spiteful revenge all out of proportion to the crime".

It's like "love", which means "affectionate concern for the wellbeing of others" - whereas when we magnify that up to infinite proportions we get "divine love", which is indistinguishable from "blatant disregard".

Why do these words end up meaning the opposite when they become divine?

dzim77

where do you get this definition from? that doesn't sound like any definition of divine justice i've ever heard. did you make it up?

where did you get this definition of 'divine love'? the god you are imagining may have blatant disregard for people, but the God of the Bible does not.

"This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers." 1 John 3:16

They don't. you're just asserting that they do with no logical, Biblical, or any other kind of proof.

greyline

Sending people to burn in hell for a crime they didn't commit is "evil spiteful revenge all out of proportion to the crime".



I said it was "indistinguishable from 'blatant disregard'". God has blatant disregard for all kinds of people in the bible - in fact, worse than that, he frequently kills his creations that he so "loves" or has others do his dirty work for him. In which case, divine love becomes indistinguishable from "evil".

In the extra-biblical modern sense, where we see no evidence of God, I was being charitable by calling it blatant disregard.