Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Cheerful Charlie · 06-20-2007, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mat Wilder

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

Most non-believers here were once believers. Arguments work. Two centuries ago, most Europeans were believers. Now, in many Western European nations, Christians are a minority and dropping fast. Here in America, non-believers were 5% of the population but in 25 years that has doubled. Check our George Barna's site for particulars.

Why do we care? Destruction of science teaching in America. Bad far right religious politicans lying us into wars. In the recent past, supporting evil right wing governments,world wide. The Catholic church and its problems with family planning and contraception. Religious anti-intellectualism. Homophobia. Anti-semitism. Need I go on and on and on?

Cheerful Charlie

Is the drop in believers really due to argumentation, though? I would say it is cultural-historical factors. Yes, it is due to the rise of science and rationalism, but on a one to one level, most people aren't swayed. I don't think your average believer is informed enough to be swayed by good arguments. For most believers it is just a matter of feeling, not something analysed.

But as to trying to get less and less people to believe? Meh. I don't really care. Yeah, I don't like having my money taken from me by the government but its not so much what they do with it that is my problem - it's that they take it at all. I don't like homophobia because I have gay friends whom it hurts. I don't so much care about poor science education or anti-intellectualism. Academics are just mental masturbation. It feels good, I agree; I can't see myself caring a whole lot, though.

The proposition "It is wrong/bad that X" where x=the things listed above is false. There is no right and wrong. So why should I waste my breath trying to "enlighten" people? Sometimes I do, but only because I like to be antagonistic at times.

Much of it is argument. I am old enough to remember only a few atheists organizations existed. Madeline Murray O'Hair's American Atheists was new. We had the Humanists and a few small one man outfits run by old guys who had been doing this since the 30's. I remember punk rock when it was new and atheism was a large part of many punks. Argument finally was brought to many more. That was new. The atheist punks were not afraid to openly be atheists. Atheism outside of O'Hair up to then was a thing of a few academics, philosophers and a small handful of brave people. Atheism had been savagely demonized by the right in the anti-communist hysteria of post WWII. I have been watching these changes for decades.

Some of it was other things. the RCC pedophile scandals. The Reagan right wingers and moral majority galvanized a lot of people (including the punks). So did scandals like the Bakkers, and Swaggart et al. The rebirth of creationism in 1972 lead to science dealing with religion. Promethueus Books started publishing in the 60's. And then, we had the internet.

The net made a big difference. But all this allowed argument. Being an Atheist was very lonely in the 60's and early 70's for many. A lot of people do care. The virulient hate for ecology by Christians in America in the 70's galvanized some people. It was an eye opener that these things mattered.

Argument matters. It slowly changes minds. I myself saw close up how punk rock changed a lot of minds on these scores. It was a sea change.
Punk rock magazines, the DIY publishing of fanzines brought atheist arguments to a whole new generation. Many later took this to the net.

CC

mojuang · 06-21-2007, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerful Charlie

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

In theory. But in practise doesn't this invariably reduce to the manufacture of strawmen in order to vituperate? I know what you mean; I only suggest that it must be impossible to do without being simply niggly fault-finding, because that is all that anyone ever seems to do.

No, if God is to be proclaimed to be perfectly good, righteous, just, merciful and loving, verse that show God is hateful, stupid, mean spirited, evil, and sadistic are fair game. But come on, come on, you knew that didn't you Roger? Why then the strawmen from you, the purpsoseful misrepresentations? God hardens hearts of most the Jews so they will not believe and Jesus and are thus all damned to eternal torment forever inhell. Romans 11. If free will means so little to God he would do this, why not make the Jews all believers in Jesus, good Christians, and to have eternal life inheaven with God?

This makes no sense, does it? It is not the act of an intelligent, loving, merciful, just, and loving omnipotent being, is it?

So this is not as you purposefully mischarcaterized this, niggling or vituperative. Nor is it any sort of strawman. It is a rather serious problemsfor those who would have us believe their God is indeed, just, merciful, loving, and wants us all to be saved as per 2 Timothy 2:3-4.

Being unable to deal with these things logically andrationally,I canseeewhy you would try the old "sneer it away" diversionary tactic, but that is not going to work. I am going to have to challenge you to explain the many verses where God is allegedly righteous, merciful, loving, just and
Romans 11 where he damns the Jews, hardens their hearts.

This is not the work of a loving,just God,is it? Why not just admit it! The Bible is nonsense! The God of the Bible is a monstrous joke.

Mark 4, Luke 8, Matthew 13, Jesus tells us he teaches in parables because:

Mark 4:10-2
10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables.
11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables
12 so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!"

Now Jesus is alledgely God, trinitarianism and all. God then is a rotter. I can see why you would want to sneer this sort of hateful bible teaching away, really, I do. But it does not work.

This is not some wee, liitle trivial bit of empty vituperation from some know-nothing atheist. This is a serious problem for a God supposedly all good, perfectly good, and just and merciful who wants us all saved. This is the sort of thing that makes people quit Christianity.

And we all know, despite your strawmen and guff, you know this too and this is why you are so bitterly opposing this effort.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Contradicts so much of the Bible, doesn't it?

The Bible is false and senseless and contradictory and irrational. And often, nasty with a madcap, sadistic and irrational God.

Why did God adopt only the Jews and not come to all mankind,the Egyptians, the Canaanites and give them law and commandments and
treat them as beloved children, rather than cockroaches, vermin to be killed mercilessly? Why a massive genocide with mass murders! No angel of death ala Egypt, no! No moving the Israelites in and making the Canaanites sterile so they die natural deaths without suffering and leave the land to God's pets. It has to be up close and personal hacking and slashing of young mothers with crying, terrified children and infants as God laughs and laughs and laughs.

Yassuh! That's the god for us, right? Imagine killing a young mother with a rude sword, slashing her until she dies in pools of her own blood as her children scream and scream and scream, she trying futilely in tears and misery and terror, to the end to trying to protect her terrified babies. Then, you turn to the children...

Wrap your mind around this Roger, feel it, roll in the feeling until you can visualize it, as if you were there now killing, killing, killing. "Leave none that breatheth" saith the Lord! Feel the horror, the screams, the terror of the children. Wrap your soul in the brutality of it all until you feel the brutality of these Israelites carrying out the commands of the Lord to the core of your being. Justy sit down quietly for a half hour and try this to your utmost. Now how do you feel about God? Everybody at least once in their lives shouls try this. I have. It sure changed me. I vicerally learned to hate the lying billy goat herder priests that made up these evil lies. That bequeathed this evil concept of God on mankind.

Can you feel it Roger? Can you? If I point this out to others, many will.
When you do this, when you really do this, it makes you think of God in a whole other way, not the pink and white bunny Jesus of Sunday school.
many have felt this, which is why Christianity is dying in Europe.

The God of the bible is a disgusting phantom. proving this God cannot exist (See my Omnigenesis thread) is a great mercy and a comfort to mankind.

Is this the work of a perfectly good, righteous, just, merciful, loving God? I can see why you hate the pointing out of verses that demonstrate the madness of the morally bankrupt bible with its sadist god. Really. I can see why you hate people pointing this out. Too bad your calculated faux outrage won't stop anybody from doing this. Nice try though.

Exodus. God tells Moses he will harden Pharoah's heart. Moses asks him to let his people go. Pharoah says yes, God hardens his heart. Pharoah says no. God then winks to Moses and kills all the first born of Egypt, including innocent infants and babies. Now again, tell us how righteous, loving, just and merciful God is again? He really loved them lil Egyptian infants, didn't he? Can't you just feel the lovvvvvvvvvvve here?

Why this is just vituperation, right? How can anybody hate God, he is just sooooooo good to us!

I can see why you act as you do, its hard to argue this evil god is in any way just, merciful or loving. The Bible lies.

What can any atheist who loves humanity do but charge on with this?

The lying bastards that made up these cruel tales with this insane, genocidal, hateful, evil, irrational God have imposed their disgusting lies on humanity long enough now. Look at the long and evil histories of Christianity and Islam and see where this evil crap has all gotten us over 1900 years.

This proposed T-Shirt would be a truely good idea if it saves one person from believing this evil shit.

Cheerful Charlie

Answer this Roger cheerful charlie put it to you. Am dying for your response because Cheerful Charlie has cleared the air where there was too much fog!
That's cool Charlie.
mojuang

Roger Pearse · 06-22-2007, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

Quote:

Roger should still answer Charlie! I wont let it drop...

... all your arguments will be vacuous before me and likely before Roger as well.

There was nothing in any of this on which I have anything special to offer. I am mildly surprised, tho, that some posters seem to forget that no-one owes them anything.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Cheerful Charlie · 06-22-2007, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

I'll answer "Cheerful Charlie"...

His quoting of verses is just as selective as the Christians he seems to accuse of Cherry-picking.

Oh, I see! If the bible contradicts itself because it has verses that say God is all good, loving, just and merciful, and if there are verses that say God did things that are not loving, just or merciful, we are not allowed to show the Bible contradicts itself and Christainity is full of crap and is obviously, logically false.

That's CHERRY PICKING! We must never cherry pick to show the bible is contradictory.

Never. We must in other words, never criticize the bible.

This "cherry picking" crap is crap. It is a prime example of special pleading, aggressive obscurantism, and trick rhetoric. "Cherry picking BAD!" No, cherry picking the worst examples of contradictions of the Bible GOOD!

It shows us the Bible is crap and Christianity is based on crap and God is a contradictory and impossible idea. It prevent us from believeing uncritically in foolish religious ideas if we look at these contradictions.

Thus, "cherry picking" is not only good, it is a duty!

Yes, take the idea that we compare verses in the Bible that show us contradictions in the claimed good qualities of god and the bad acts of God and call it "Cherry picking"! Now claim cherry picking is BAD! Ignore the problems of the contradictions themselves. What a self serving bit of obscurantism!

At best, maybe you can divert the debate from these contradictions to an ugly little argument about "cherrypicking"!

Well, no, Romans 11 still says God hardened the hearts of the Jews not to believe. Thus they are damned to eternal torment. This is not the act of a God that is claimed over and over again and again to be loving, good, righteous, merciful and just. Romans 11 is none of these things and contradicts 1 Timothy 2:3 God wants all mankind to be saved!

Jesus (God) speaks in parables so people will not convert and be saved! Mark 4, Luke 8, Matthew 13!

I'll cherry pick these bad verses out to demonstrate the intellectual bankruptcy of Christianity until the cows come home!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

He claims God must be unjust for rejecting the Jews but forgets to mention that they were, from the beginning, God's chosen people, and are still considered such, but at the same time many of them (according to their own scriptures) rejected their God over and over again in cycles and killed the very prophets sent by God.

So that means it is sensible and good to harden their hearts, blind their eyes, stop their ears and damn the Jews to hell forever. Yes, we see. God is loving, merciful and just. And he wants us all to be saved.

Really, you are NOT going to be thinking about these claims and god's actions, are you? You are not going to allow yourself to see the full monstrousness of the damning of the Jews, the heardening of their hearts!

You will not allow yourself to fully contemplate these explanations of Jesus as to why he teaches in parables, So many will NOT convert, have their sins forgiven and be saved!

What a contemptable God!

And how do we know what you say is true? What did you CHERRY PICK some verses out of the Bible here? Cherry picking is bad, right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

And God is unjust? Unfortunately, it is man who is unjust.

BULLSHIT. God is not as claimed, just, merciful, loving, righteous, good,.
man usually does better than THIS god of the Bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

Further, it is easy to criticize another's views because no one has completely consistent and unassailable views. In fact, I would challenge "Cheerful Charlie" on being an "atheist who loves humanity". In fact, he has little reason, as an atheist, to love humanity, especially to the detriment of his own wishes and desires, and he shows this quite well to the detriment of Christians. So, expose your own views, Charlie, and lets see just how well they stand up to close scrutiny.

You have no right to challenge me in this fashion. There is no God and I can prove that. Thus we are all ethically on our own with no God. America's christians have been voting three decades now for evil politicians supporting evil regimes worldwide, such as saddam Hussein, Guatemala's genodcial Rios Montt and the death of 500,000 Iraqi children among other horrors.This death of 500,000 Iraqi children was the last great genocide of the 20th century and American Christianity did not arise up and end it.

Christianity is thus, a moral failure. It could have acted and did not.Thus you have no right to attack me, when Christianity is a failure. Christianity had the numbers to succeed in ending this genocide and did not bother.

My views are, Christianity in America is a vast moral failure.I resent the fact that starting with Nixon the US did these things, supported regimes from Pinochet to Pol Pot and killed 500,000 Iraqi children callously, purposefully, and then attacks us Atheists as not having morals because we do not believe in a god that as I showed, is a morally inferior concept its self anyway.

For 30 years, American Christianty demonstrated its abject moral failures and that can never be forgotten, and not forgiven as long as Christians attack us atheists in the manner you do so.

Cheerful Charlie

Cheerful Charlie · 06-22-2007, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

... all your arguments will be vacuous before me and likely before Roger as well.

There was nothing in any of this on which I have anything special to offer. I am mildly surprised, tho, that some posters seem to forget that no-one owes them anything.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

If you post, you owe us intellectual honesty, and truthfullness.

CC

06-22-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

You know what hacks me off? Intelligent people post interesting threads with interesting questions and they go ignored while many, many moronic threads like this one go on and on and get all the attention..

If you don't like a particular thread why do you participate in it?? There are lots of threads on this board. Find the ones you like and ignore the rest.

Quote:

It tells me that most people are not interested in serious investigation of biblical and historical issues, they merely care about plucking verses from the Bible to make some hare-brained point against it.

Just because you don't agree with someones opinion doesn't make it "hare-brained" If you feel someones idea is faulty just go ahead and point out why

Quote:

What on earth they think they're doing with this stuff, I have no idea. It appears meant only to offend people they disagree with because it certainly won't change anyone's minds about anything. They just identify themselves as one of the annoyingly vocal minority.

And calling people "moronic, hare-brained, and annoying" is not intended to offend??

OK! Now I understand why you are unhappy. I did some looking and found that you started a thread that did not capture the interest of others. No big deal, it happens.

Riverwind · 06-22-2007, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donn10

If you don't like a particular thread why do you participate in it?? There are lots of threads on this board. Find the ones you like and ignore the rest.

Because, like others here, I tend to like to express my opinions when I don't like something.

As you found out, I definitely do (and have) participated in other threads, usually ignoring the kind of idiocy of this thread.

Quote:

Just because you don't agree with someones opinion doesn't make it "hare-brained" If you feel someones idea is faulty just go ahead and point out why.

It's been done a million times and only those who've been around it too long enough seem to get tired of it. There's always some new sucker to buy into cheap, unscholarly criticism.

Quote:

OK! Now I understand why you are unhappy. I did some looking and found that you started a thread that did not capture the interest of others. No big deal, it happens.

I've always been classified in these forums as unhappy and mad, which is kind of funny if you knew the real me. I can be rather sarcastic when I feel others need a wake-up call, but I'm not really unhappy.

I suppose I am mildly annoyed that threads like this one receive thousands of hits while serious and probing questions like mine, Roger's, Chris's, and some others usually get a few hits and then die. It just shows that people want to criticize more than they want to investigate.

Chris Weimer · 06-22-2007, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riverwind

I suppose I am mildly annoyed that threads like this one receive thousands of hits while serious and probing questions like mine, Roger's, Chris's, and some others usually get a few hits and then die. It just shows that people want to criticize more than they want to investigate.

I've been waiting for a long time for someone to investigate with me the "two hands in John" that spin introduced years back...any takers?

In essence, that's what this forum is for - critique. Not critical evaluations, but critiques. :huh:

Riverwind · 06-24-2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Weimer

I've been waiting for a long time for someone to investigate with me the "two hands in John" that spin introduced years back...any takers?

Please bring it up (if it hasn't already been and I missed it...). I'm not sure if I will contribute, as I do not believe there are two hands in John, but I'll consider the arguments laid out and investigate the claims.

Toto · 06-25-2007, 12:37 PM

Chris - is this the thread of which you write? The father, my father

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-25-2007, 12:37 PM	#20
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Chris - is this the thread of which you write? The father, my father

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.