Clivedurdle

From your link - (I missed that thought provoking thread whilst on holiday. Doesn't James in Varieties make similar points? I think probably several people were messing around with getting high on god and "Jesus" got invented as a way to explain their experiences - gnosticism etc, bread, wine, candles, songs, glossalalia....)

Is it a Judaic association or was it invented by Jerome?

We now have two major examples of very powerful lights - the atomic bomb and, interestingly, the brightest object apart from the moon in the night sky is now the international space station, not Venus.

Amaleq13

To my knowledge, there is no support for the notion of a Judaic association between Satan and Venus but I've found several references online that claim Origenes Adamantius (185-254CE) was actually the first to call Satan "Lucifer". None have offered a specific textual reference, however, and all follow it with a reference to Jerome.

Chris Weimer

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Isaiah 14:12
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Hebrew1: איך �*פלת משמים הילל בן-שחר �*גדעת לארץ חולש על-גוים

Hebrew2: How have you fallen from heaven, oh bright one, son of dawn. [How] have you been cut to the ground, weakening the nations.

Greek1: πως εξεπεσεν εκ του ουρανου ο εωσφορος ο πρωι ανατελλων συνετριβη εις την γην ο αποστελλων προς παντα τα εθνη.

Greek2: How did you fall from heaven, morning-bringer, who, rising early, crashed to the ground, sending towards all the nations.

Latin1: Quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes.

Latin2: How have you fallen from heaven, light-bringer, who was rising early. You have fallen into the earth, you who was wounding nations.

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Revelation 22:16
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Greek1: Εγω Ιησους επεμψα τον αγγελον μου μαρτυρησαι υμιν ταυτα επι ταις εκκλησιαις εγω ειμι η ριζα και το γενος Δαυιδ ο αστηρ ο λαμπρος ο πρωινος.

Greek2: I Jesus have sent have sent my angel to testify these things for you in the churches: I am the root and the offspring of David, [I am] the bright and morning star.

Latin1: ego Iesus misi angelum meum testificari vobis haec in ecclesiis ego sum radix et genus David stella splendida et matutina.

Latin2: I Jesus have sent my angel to testify these things for you in the churches. I am the root and offspring of David, the bright and morning star.

Loomis

There is a missing link between “Satan” and Venus. It comes by way of the god Athtar - who was associated with Venus.

In one of the Ugaritic myths Athtar attempts to take Baal's place at his throne while Baal is dead, but he is too small for the seat and rejects it, becoming king of the earth instead.

This could be the background for Isaiah 14:12. “Helel” could be another name for Athtar.

Use Google.

azidhak

I thought this made it obvious who the latter verse refers to or am I overlooking things?

Loomis

You are overlooking the possibility that verses 12~14 might be a much older story about a god named Athtar, and that all of the surrounding verses are newer and written around it. If you aren’t familiar with the Ugaritic stuff about El, Baal, Yamm, Shachar, Shalem, etc, you aren’t going to get it.

Like I said in my first post, all of this imagery -- Shachar, the stars of El, the mountain of assembly, the slopes of Zaphon, the idea of climbing up to the tops of the clouds, and the Most High, comes straight out of Ugarit mythology. This demands an explaination.

There is no mention of Yahweh or Babylon inside this section. I think the change is very noticeable if you know what to look for.

I bet that the guy who wrote Isaiah 14 borrowed the older story about Athtar, and I bet he even expected his readers to recognize it.