Amlodhi

Thanks for the quotes judge, most interesting.


Right. Although in my copy of his translation Whiston argues for authenticity, from everything else I have read it would seem more safe to doubt Josephan authorship.

The following letter from Matthew Kraus, posted by Stephen Carlson on Peter Kirby's site, touches on some of the salient points:



My current suspicion is that it sprang from a lengthy and complex combination of misunderstanding and syncretism. During the Babylonian captivity, the Jews would, of course, have been immersed in a well-spring of Babylonian mythology. In the centuries that followed, (when much of the afore mentioned mandatory re-interpretation and extrapolation would have taken place), the Hellenistic influences that you mention would, in turn, have blended with Babylonian (& Persian) influences.

There seems to be little doubt that the later concept of "hell" is related in some way to the more primal concept of an "underworld"; with the extrapolations of "fire", "punishment" and even "eternity" tacked on. Or, if one insists, the movement from one "underworld" location to another (underworld?) location of fire, punishment & eternity.

Here it may as well be stated upfront, that I tend to think the origins of these concepts (and even the terminology) stem from astronomical associations. IOW, the terms and concepts used, "underworld", "fire", "punishment", "transgression", etc., are found repeatedly in the mythology of many diverse cultures where their use is pointedly astronomical in nature.

Three very brief examples (all emphases added):

Due to the phenomenon of precession, the star symbols that marked cyclic time at key points (such as the equinoxes and the solstices), would drift out of position. This process was often described from the alternating perspective of either the key symbols arriving late or of the new symbols "thronging in" or "working iniquity", in that they were defying the divine order.

Since the time of the Golden Age, Kronos (the time keeper; in many incarnations) was thought to rule by divine decree from the underworld (also in many incarnations, Eridu, whirlpool, etc.) which was associated with Canopus and the southern circumpolar stars. Hence, "down under", or "the underworld". Both the northern and southern poles were also associated with the imagery of "world trees" or "mountains" which reached to the heavens.

As one astronomical age passed and another ascended, the former "world" was considered "burnt out" and its symbols (rulers) consigned to the "flame" and to dwell in the underworld.

It is interesting then, that we find much of these same concepts and imagery in the Ethiopic Apocalypse of Enoch, which may date to c. the 2nd century B.C. A couple of very brief examples (again, all emphases added):


Due to time and space considerations, the attestation in this post has been necessarily brief; actually not much more than a hint. Nevertheless, a considerable examination of the available material has led me to agree with the several well-credentialed scholars who submit that many (if not most) of later "religious" concepts, (including that of being consigned to the flames of the underworld, or "hell"), are the result of a long process of misunderstanding and syncretism that has obscured their stellar origin.



Indeed. I have heard it said that "practice makes perfect"; but this is not so. Rather, it should be said that "practice makes permanent". Progress is key; practicing a faulty methodology is merely stagnating.


As ever, namaste'

Amlodhi

judge

Thanks amlodhi!
Can you recommend a good introduction for the layman to these ideas?
I know of Hamlets Mill
Is there something else you would propose?

Amlodhi

I would recommend "Hamlet's Mill" first and foremost. While it's the most indepth and scholarly treatise available on a complex (and too often ignored) subject, it will also provide an introduction to both the mechanics of precession and to the concepts being dealt with. It can, at times, be rough wading though, so it may take more than one pass through to absorb.

Also: "The Death of Gods in Ancient Egypt" by Jane Sellers is a worthwhile read, though I haven't had time to study it enough to make any further evaluation.

Then, after reading the above, it can also be instructive to go back and re-read any of Joseph Campbell's work and James Frazer's "The Golden Bough".

And of course, there are any number of source texts: the myths of Mesopotamia, the Book of Coming Forth by Day, the Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts, the Rig Veda, the Bhagavad Gita, the Popol Vuh, the Edda, etc.

But, again, if you are interested in the subject, read "Hamlet's Mill" first and then you will be able to decide what you might like to read next.


Hope you find the concept as interesting as I do,

Amlodhi

judge

Thanks, I think i will order it next month. :notworthy

judge

So what do you make of Isaiah looking forward to a new heavens and a new earth?

This like other prophetic utterances seems to have more wide reaching implications ?

Amlodhi

The grammatical construction of the relevant sentences in Isaiah chapters 65 & 66 indicate that the term "bara" (create) is not used here in the sense of creation ex nihilo. Consider the usage of this term in Isaiah 41:18-20:

In the above passage, (which is referring to the same upcoming event as is chapters 65 & 66), it is clear that "bara" (create) does not indicate creation ex nihilo but, rather the sense of transformation. If God were going to make a brand new wonderful world from scratch, there would be no need for the renovations described in the above quote.


This is also the opinion expressed in BDB:
[Note: the term used in Is. 66:22 is עשה "asah" (make) which (to the best of my knowledge) is never used in the sense of creation ex nihilo.]

As regards the indicated sense of "time", the term "bara" in the Is 41:20 reference (quoted above) appears to be in the past perfect tense (past time relative to a point of reference in the narrative), i.e. "that they may see (that) . . . the Holy One of Israel has created it".

All other referenced usages of the term "bara" (and also the term "asah" in Is. 66:22) are, in Hebrew, not in the verbal form but, rather, participles used as verbs (i.e. בוֹרֵ×? as opposed to בָרָ×?).

These participles can describe continuous action in the past, present, or future, within the time of the context. However, unlike imperfect verb forms which can indicate an indefinite future and are sometimes accompanied by phrases such as "In that day", participles usually indicate an imminent event, especially when preceded by phrases such as "Behold", as is the case in Is. 65:17:


Thus, all the grammatical constructions support what the context has been telling us all along. At the end of the Babylonian captivity, "Isaiah" expected that imminent action by YHWH would now vanquish the bad guys, renovate Jerusalem/Judah, and that they would (in all seriousness) 'live happily ever after". Only it didn't happen.


P.S. As to the phraseology of "heavens new" as well as "earth new", this sounds suspiciously like something that could well have been syncretized (even if misunderstood) from the lingua franca discussed in my previous post.


Always a pleasure to "talk" with you, judge, (though I think we have just ninja'd GPLindsey's thread),


Amlodhi

judge

Any thoughts as to what "heavens new" may have originally meant (to anyone or in any context)?

Likewise, and yes I think you are right.

Amlodhi

Since we seem to have the thread to ourselves, I suspect that it might be okay to continue the occupation.

The line of thought that I agree with is that "heavens new" originally referred to a shift in the position of the stars in the celestial canopy. Although this shifting occurs incrementally and continuously, there were (and are) specific points of reference (such as the solstices and equinoxes) for marking this change.

One such use of these reference points was to observe the star or constellation that was visible just above the eastern horizon immediately before sunrise on the day of the vernal (spring) equinox. This was (is) referred to as the constellation's (or star's) "heliacal rising", and the constellation that rose heliacally on the vernal equinox was known as the sun's "carrier" or "pillar".

From our perspective on earth, the phenomenon of precession results in an observed retrograde motion of the zodiacal circle. Thus, the constellation rising heliacally on the vernal equinox is replaced by the next constellation in the zodiacal line-up approximately every 2160 years. But note, since this apparent motion is retrograde, the replacement order is opposite to the "right" sequence of the zodiacal signs, (i.e. Taurus > Aries > Pisces, instead of Pisces > Aries > Taurus).

Because the boundary markers of these constellations weren't absolute, there could be some question as to exactly when one constellation was to be considered replaced by another at the vernal heliacal rising. But, without getting into more complex considerations of trigonal conjunctions, & etc.; the sun's "carrier" in past ages would have been (very roughly): Gemini > 6520 b.c to 4360 b.c.; Taurus > 4360 b.c. to 2200 b.c.; Aries > 2200 b.c. to 40 b.c.; Pisces > 40 b.c. to present; and the much heralded new "age of Aquarius" soon to arrive.

During each of the ages, the constellation rising heliacally on the vernal equinox (i.e. as the sun's "carrier", or "pillar") was considered to "rule" that age. While it is not surprising that once a particular culture became accustomed to the veneration of a particular age (or "world") ruler they might then continue this veneration well into the next "world" age, it is interesting that the pattern of succesive "world/age" rulers tends to synchronize with various "historical" references.

There are hints that Gemini (the twins) may have also been represented as a man and a woman; of course Taurus is the bull, Aries the ram (or lamb), and Pisces the fish. Thus, following the approximate dating for each world age given above, there are some intriguing associations: i.e., Gemini as just possibly a representation of Adam and Eve?, Golden Age?, end of Gemini age represented as fall of Adam and Eve (serpent=Ouroborus?), > Taurus in the age of veneration of the Apis bull in Egypt, end of Taurus age possibly represented as the slaying of the "bull of heaven" in the Gilgamesh Epic, possible origin of the tauroctony?, Abraham's being provided with a ram for sacrifice at end of Taurus age, and perhaps even Moses' wrath that the children of Israel were emulating the (still clung to) "bull cult" of Egypt upon descending from the mountain (with ram horns on his head?).

Of course then, in the age of Aries, veneration of the bull wanes (with various possible iconography of "slaying of the bull" motifs), Jesus as the lamb sacrificed at the end of Aries age? > and Pisces as marking the beginning of the Christian age with various references to virgins, (Virgo would at this time be standing at the autumnal equinox), and a new born child (ruler) from the pens of Vergil, etal.

Interesting possibilites, but the main point is that this precessional shifting of the celestial sphere does not only position a new constellation (or world ruler) at the vernal point. Since the "fixed" stars retain their position relative to each other (excluding individual parallactic drift), whenever the vernal constellation shifts, the entire celestial "map" shifts as well.

Thus, each successive "new world age" brings with it not only a new "world ruler", but also a "heavens new".

Big "however" though; this is not to say that "Isaiah" understood all this. Isaiah was firmly enmeshed in the colloquial YHWH culture of Judah, and yet, I think it worth considering that a syncretic accumulation of concepts, imagery and vernacular (especially during the Babylonian captivity) may have tempered his visualization (and thus, descriptions) of Yahwism . . . as it always has done and as it always will do.

"For from today new feasts and customs date,
Because tonight is born Shah Kai Khusrau!
...'Sleep no more, but join the feast
Of Kai Khusrau, the monarch of the world. . .

The whole world is my kingdom, all is mine
From Pisces downward to the Bull's head."

(Note that Kai Khusrau is monarch of the whole world; whereas, "From Pisces downward to the Bull's head" is a measure of time, not geography.)

[Firdausi, Warner trans., vol. 2, pg. 342 & pg. 407, (parenthetical comment mine)]


"Our forefathers in the most remote ages have handed down to their posterity a tradition, in the form of a myth, that these (celestial) bodies are gods and that the divine encloses the whole of nature. The rest of the tradition has been added later in mythical form . . .; they say that these gods are in the form of men or like some of the other animals . . . But if one were to separate the first point from these additions and take it alone - that they thought the first substances to be gods, one must regard this as an inspired utterance, and reflect that, while probably each art and each science has often been developed as far as possible and has again perished, these opinions, with others, have been preserved until the present like relics of the ancient treasure."

[Aristotle, Metaphysics, Book Lambda (1074,b)]


Amlodhi