Freethought & Rationalism Archive

neo_mp5 · 03-02-2004, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pixnaps
haha, neo-mp5 reminds me of the brilliant Butterflies & Wheels Woolly-thinker's Guide to Rhetoric:

I'll add in an extra entry of my own, just for neo:

Claim that mindreading is more reliable than self-reports

Never concede that other people know their own thoughts. Claim instead that you know their thoughts & feelings better than they do. For example, if someone (or several million someones) claims that they find watching sport to be entertaining, be sure to correct them! Say to them "No! In actual fact you do NOT find sport to be entertaining. You are just wrong. Sport is not entertaining at all."

i resent that. you can't drag things like that out of the air. reread the thread. your accusations are unfounded

Pixnaps · 03-02-2004, 10:03 PM

i'm happy to let the reader judge for themselves if my comments were justified.

It's easy enough to look back on your recent comments to that effect. For example, you wrote:
"there is nothing wrong with recreation, hobbies or entertainment. but sports are not entertainment"

hmm.

Simiangrunt · 03-02-2004, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by neo_mp5
i've come to the conclusion that professional sports are immoral. they take extremely physically capable people out of the work force, and those people get highly highly overpaid to HAVE FUN professionally. and the people watching are not only tuning out the real world to concentrate entirely on a game, and getting fat sitting there watching, they are puting a lot of emotion into supporting a sports team when they could be just as passionate about something more important. plus all the money that goes into supporting a team, merchandising, leagues, arenas etc., that's a lot going to waste

what are your thoughts on this?

It's all about the role recreation plays in our lives. The people who love/follow professional sports do so to take their minds off of the day to day drudgery that people have to go through. Following pro sports is very rejuvenating, and helps with the morale of the people who follow sports. Sports, for many people, is actually one of the high points of their lives. Take soccer for instance. This sport is considered as a religion in many countries of the world. Again, though, it's not like the sport is the only thing in their lives. It's just one form of recreation that people enjoy. And, recreation is only one important aspect in people's lives. There are definitely more important things to be done, but that is beside the point. We have to lay back once in a while to relax - many people choose sport, many people choose other things to focus on. Here, it's a matter of taste.

chapka · 03-03-2004, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by neo_mp5
sports were invented as recreational activities. then they became a competitive thing. then people started watching. it's not a performance, and never was, even if you see it that way.

Theater was invented as a religious ritual. Then it became public ritual. Then people started watching and performing for non-religious reasons.

And when people started watching it became a performance. How it originated is irrelevant.

You say that "if somebody watched doed not change the nature of what their watching." But a performance is something done for others to watch; its definition hinges on whether it's watched. Entertainment is that which entertains. If you have a different definition, you need to present it and justify it. So far all you've done is assert that "entertainment" does not include "sports".

chapka · 03-03-2004, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by neo_mp5
i'll wait until my arguments have been annihilated first. as of yet, my argumens have been attacked by nothing more intelligent than "oh yeah? well, you're a dumb-head"

Please point out where in this post I call you a "dumb-head". Then respond to my arguments. Then I'd appreciate it if you'd apologize for your above quoted ad hominem attack on me and on everyone else who's replied on this thread.

Quote:

Originally posted by chapka
I can't see how you can argue that athletes are not entertainers. They're paid as much as they are because people want to watch them. People want to watch them because they find it entertaining. People on this thread have explained how entertaining they find it.

The fact that you personally do not find them entertaining does not mean that they're not entertainers. I enjoy opera, and I don't enjoy boxing. But I know that there are many people for whom the opposite is true. So I sit at the opera, getting fat and investing emotionally in the trivialities of the stories, while they do the same at the boxing ring.

You've said, "but those draw you in intellectally. there is nothing to draw you into a sport unless you know a player." How can you defend this position when it's perfectly clear that there are billions of people who are drawn in by professional sports? Did every one of the fans who watched the last World Cup know a player professionally? Or is it possible that there is an intellectual interest to be gained through sports, and that you just aren't interested? (Nothing wrong with that, of course--de gustibus etc.)

Is it the physical nature of sports that you object to? (If so, how about dance?) Is it the competition? (If so, how about rap battles?) I don't see a clear separation between sports and other forms of entertainment such that we can declare one "intellectual" and the other not.

xorbie · 03-03-2004, 08:00 AM

neo_mp5:

I hope you realize I'm not debating here to convince you of anything. Frankly, I don't care if you think sports are immoral; in the grand scheme of things it's quite meaningless. I think it's pretty clear to most everyone here that you have no argument, and your constant complaints that we are attacking you and have not refuted anything aren't going to change that. My ego is already inflated enough that I don't need you to suddenly see the light just so I can sleep well at night. I'm debating here for the purpose of any users and/or lurkers who might actually be taking your arguments seriously. So if you're not even going to make an attempt at an argument for my sake, or for yours, or at least do it for them.

Joel

neo_mp5 · 03-03-2004, 12:06 PM

"It's all about the role recreation plays in our lives. The people who love/follow professional sports do so to take their minds off of the day to day drudgery that people have to go through."

that means it serves as a distraction. it takes their attention away from important things

"Following pro sports is very rejuvenating, and helps with the morale of the people who follow sports. Sports, for many people, is actually one of the high points of their lives. Take soccer for instance. This sport is considered as a religion in many countries of the world."

that's truly sad. no wonder we still have so many problems, everybody's too busy watching the game to care. it becomes a pride thing to them. a form of patriotism. i would think it would be more patriotic to make one's region a good place to live.

"Again, though, it's not like the sport is the only thing in their lives."

often it is.

"It's just one form of recreation that people enjoy. And, recreation is only one important aspect in people's lives. There are definitely more important things to be done, but that is beside the point. We have to lay back once in a while to relax - many people choose sport, many people choose other things to focus on. Here, it's a matter of taste."

i don't care if people play sports. at least they get excersize and have fun, but watching sports is a waste. wouldn't playing be more fun anyway?

neo_mp5 · 03-03-2004, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chapka
Theater was invented as a religious ritual. Then it became public ritual. Then people started watching and performing for non-religious reasons.

i was under the impression that theatre was invented by the ancient athenians as a form of public entertainment.

neo_mp5 · 03-03-2004, 12:10 PM

"in the grand scheme of things it's quite meaningless."

exactly! now you get it! sports are meaningless! but people see them as a way of life, and a source of pride. which means they don't have pride or time, or interest for anything real!

chapka · 03-03-2004, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by neo_mp5
i was under the impression that theatre was invented by the ancient athenians as a form of public entertainment.

There was ritual theater used in worship in India and China thousands of years before Athens, which evolved into those regions' indigenous secular theater traditions. And Athenian theater surely didn't spring from whole cloth; what were its roots? I suspect investigation would reveal non-entertainment sources there as well.

03-03-2004, 12:06 PM	#87
neo_mp5 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: zion, alberta, canada, north america, western hemisphere, terra, sol system, milky way galaxy, known universe Posts: 180	Re: Re: professional sports immoral? "It's all about the role recreation plays in our lives. The people who love/follow professional sports do so to take their minds off of the day to day drudgery that people have to go through." that means it serves as a distraction. it takes their attention away from important things "Following pro sports is very rejuvenating, and helps with the morale of the people who follow sports. Sports, for many people, is actually one of the high points of their lives. Take soccer for instance. This sport is considered as a religion in many countries of the world." that's truly sad. no wonder we still have so many problems, everybody's too busy watching the game to care. it becomes a pride thing to them. a form of patriotism. i would think it would be more patriotic to make one's region a good place to live. "Again, though, it's not like the sport is the only thing in their lives." often it is. "It's just one form of recreation that people enjoy. And, recreation is only one important aspect in people's lives. There are definitely more important things to be done, but that is beside the point. We have to lay back once in a while to relax - many people choose sport, many people choose other things to focus on. Here, it's a matter of taste." i don't care if people play sports. at least they get excersize and have fun, but watching sports is a waste. wouldn't playing be more fun anyway?

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03-02-2004, 10:03 PM	#82
Pixnaps Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: New Zealand Posts: 260	i'm happy to let the reader judge for themselves if my comments were justified. It's easy enough to look back on your recent comments to that effect. For example, you wrote: "there is nothing wrong with recreation, hobbies or entertainment. but sports are not entertainment" hmm.

03-03-2004, 08:00 AM	#86
xorbie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Champaign, IL or Boston, MA Posts: 6,360	neo_mp5: I hope you realize I'm not debating here to convince you of anything. Frankly, I don't care if you think sports are immoral; in the grand scheme of things it's quite meaningless. I think it's pretty clear to most everyone here that you have no argument, and your constant complaints that we are attacking you and have not refuted anything aren't going to change that. My ego is already inflated enough that I don't need you to suddenly see the light just so I can sleep well at night. I'm debating here for the purpose of any users and/or lurkers who might actually be taking your arguments seriously. So if you're not even going to make an attempt at an argument for my sake, or for yours, or at least do it for them. Joel

03-03-2004, 12:10 PM	#89
neo_mp5 Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: zion, alberta, canada, north america, western hemisphere, terra, sol system, milky way galaxy, known universe Posts: 180	"in the grand scheme of things it's quite meaningless." exactly! now you get it! sports are meaningless! but people see them as a way of life, and a source of pride. which means they don't have pride or time, or interest for anything real!

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