Malcolm Kirkpatrick

Digestion is one of those things which everybody uses but few think about. Is digestion dangerous?

AthenaAwakened

"words"

"things"

Not synonymous.

A word is a distinct element of writing or speech symbolizing a particular meaning.

Digestion is a process.


But thank you playing our game.

Bonniedundee

But class identiy is not absract. Patriotism beyond say the Fens or central Somerset or the lake district or some region of that size which you grew up in and knew the land and people well is just an abstraction artificially created, usually by those in power.

Malcolm Kirkpatrick

(malcolm): " 'Man is the political animal.'--Aristotle.
As a definition, this doesn't work very well, since many animals form groups and dominance hierarchies, but there is at least the correct observation that humans are social animals. Patriotism is one form of group identity. Religion, race, class, and occupation are others. To say that the human appetite for group membership is bad is like saying that the human appetite for protein is bad, seems to me. Socialists who disdain patriotism but who exalt class identity assert, in effect: 'My group's group identity is better than your group's group identity'. "Seems to me "class" is just as abstract (if not more so) as "nation". People live here or there. They have control over some amount of resources. People observe that national boundaries are accidents of history and accidents of birth determine, for many, national membership. From this, critics of patriotism deduce that patriotism is artificial, or something. Just so are "class" boundaries artificial and accidents of birth determine, for many, their control over resources (i.e., wealth, and so, "class").

Patriotism (national identity) is far less malovent than class consciousness, since class consciousness almost requires envy and resentment. Everyone can be proud of his nation without taking anything away from citizens of another nation, just as someone can be proud of being the school's top 100 meter sprinter, without taking anything away from the person who is the neighborhood basketball champ. Class consciousness requires a comparison of the resources under one's control (wealth) with the resources under other people's control.

Furthermore, the boundaries of "nation" can be clear matters of fact (e.g., the middle of the Rio Grande), while class boundaries are vague and many people live in a vast grey area. How many classes are there? Is a truckdriver "working class"? What if he owns the tractor (a $150,000 piece of machinery), makes $60,000 in a bad year, and is self-employed? Compare the trucker who workes as an employee for a firm, who doesn't own the rig, and who makes $70,000. Is s/he "working class? Now understand that people move back and forth across these boundaries (e.g., switch from "employee" to "independent contractor", buy and sell equipment, etc). "Class" turns to mush.

Class identity is at least as much "an abstraction artificially created".

squiz

The word digestion is not bandied about as if it is a great virtue. Digestion just is.

squiz

Both are powerful forces, yet I think patriotism is by far the stronger (and thus more potentially dangerous force). Even Stalin felt the need to switch Soviet propaganda from the class war to an emphasis on Russian nationalism, in order to beat the Nazis. Class ideology can only go so far, whereas national feeling taps into something much deeper.

squiz

BTW. Just a point on the definitions. The word patriotism seems to come from father. Probably something to do with the fatherland.

"Nation" was not originally synonymous with the State or political entity. Otherwise the term Nation-State would be a tautology. Nation originally refered to an ethnic or cultural grouping - a single "people". It is only relatively recently that this has come to be a synonym for a political entity.