Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Freethinkaluva · 12-12-2007, 08:44 AM

Jesus and the Cross

The most important symbol in Christianity today is the cross.

However, there is no cross in early Christian art before the middle of the 5th century, where it appears on a coin in a painting. The first clear crucifixion appears in the late 7th century. Before then, Jesus was almost always depicted as a fish or a Shepard, never on a cross.

Quote:

"The Babylonians, Egyptians, Aztecs & others had cross symbols. However, there is no cross in Christianity. No cross at all! There is no cross anywhere in the bible. The words which have been translated "cross" & "crucify" in the New Testament are "stauross" or "stavross" & "stavrooh". All translators, even fundamentalists, agree that a they are *NOT* a cross. Liddell & Scotts A Greek-English Lexicon defines "stauross" or "stavross" as "upright pale or stake". W.E. Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament words, another Christian resource, reports that "stauross" or "stavross" - "denotes, primarily, an upright pale or stake".
~ "Losing faith in faith" pg 203-4

Quote:

"In the gospel story Jesus tells his disciples to 'take up the cross' & follow him. Obviously, the cross already existed and was a well-known symbol, such that Jesus did not even have to explain this strange statement about an object that, we are led to believe, only gained significance AFTER Jesus died on it..."

"...The early Christians were actually repulsed by the image of a man hanging on the cross which was not adopted until the 7th century. Walker states, "Early Christians even repudiated the cross because it was pagan...Early images of Jesus represented him not on a cross, but in the guise of the Osirian or Hermetic 'Good Sheperd,' carrying a lamb..."
~ Christ Conspiracy pg 218

Quote:

"As is acknowledged by the Catholic Encyclopedia ("Archaeology of the Cross and Crucifix"):

"The sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both the East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization."

"It is also, according to Milani, a symbol of the sun…, and seems to denote its daily rotation."

The cross was in pre-Christian times a common symbol, revered as a divine sign, an emblem of the solar deity, representing the times of the year when the sun appears to be "hung on a cross," i.e., the vernal and autumnal equinoxes."

"early Christian writer Minucius Felix (c. 250) in his Octavius, in which Felix denied that Christians worship a "criminal and his cross," which may signify a denial of Jesus being a "criminal," rather than that Christianity did not then possess the tradition of a god crucified."

"Tertullian, likewise confirmed the Pagan cross and crucifix, in his response to the charges that Christians adored the cross. As CE relates:

"The Christian apologists, such as Tertullian (Apol., xvi; Ad. Nationes, xii) and Minucius Felix (Octavius, lx, xii, xxviii), felicitously replied to the pagan taunt by showing that their persecutors themselves adored cruciform objects."

"In The Apology (Chapter XVI), Tertullian writes:

"Then, if any of you think we render superstitious adoration to the cross, in that adoration he is sharer with us...We have shown before that your deities are derived from shapes modelled from the cross. But you also worship victories, for in your trophies the cross is the heart of the trophy....Others, again, certainly with more information and greater verisimilitude, believe that the sun is our god..."
http://www.truthbeknown.com/kcrucified_4.htm

No Robots · 12-12-2007, 08:54 AM

I don't know what your point is. However, the evidence is that many Christians found the crucifixion to be deeply embarrassing (see Gal. 5:11). Pagans did hit them over the head for worshipping "a crucified sophist."

QuestionMark · 12-12-2007, 08:54 AM

Read 'CONSTANTINE'S CROSS' for the history of the sword symbol.

A Crucifixion cross is shaped like a 'T' and not a 't'.

QM?

Toto · 12-12-2007, 01:54 PM

Do you mean Constantine's Sword (or via: amazon.co.uk)?

I have not read the book yet, but I saw the documentary that James Carroll produced based on his book. His theory is that, before Constantine, Christian symbols were all life affirming - fish, sheep, etc. Then Constantine saw the image of the chi-rho cross in the heavens and used it to win military battles. But the defining event was when his mother, St. Helena, went to Palestine and discovered the fragments of the true cross upon which Jesus was crucified (reported enough of those fragments have been discovered to rebuild the ark, but anyway. . .) The cross was proof that the Jews had killed Jesus, and this started the long, unfortunate history of Christian anti-semitism. I haven't had time to reseach how much of this is undisputed history, and how much is just an attempt to create a better sort of Christianity by trying to go back to that mythical past when everything was good and peaceful.

If you do have a chance to see the film, I recommend it highly.

QuestionMark · 12-12-2007, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Do you mean Constantine's Sword (or via: amazon.co.uk)?

I have not read the book yet, but I saw the documentary that James Carroll produced based on his book. His theory is that, before Constantine, Christian symbols were all life affirming - fish, sheep, etc. Then Constantine saw the image of the chi-rho cross in the heavens and used it to win military battles. But the defining event was when his mother, St. Helena, went to Palestine and discovered the fragments of the true cross upon which Jesus was crucified (reported enough of those fragments have been discovered to rebuild the ark, but anyway. . .) The cross was proof that the Jews had killed Jesus, and this started the long, unfortunate history of Christian anti-semitism. I haven't had time to reseach how much of this is undisputed history, and how much is just an attempt to create a better sort of Christianity by trying to go back to that mythical past when everything was good and peaceful.

If you do have a chance to see the film, I recommend it highly.

Yes, Sword, not 'Cross'.

King Constantine was in Germany the night before a battle.

He prayed for a victory and after he won, he used his sword as the symbol for Christianity.

He immediately banned Judaism.

Ever try to nail a 4x4 to another 4x4? Almost impossible.

You can easily sharpen a 4x4 and bore a hole into another to make a simple crucifixion 'T'.

QM?

Antipope Innocent II · 12-12-2007, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuestionMark

King Constantine was in Germany the night before a battle.

"King" Constantine? And if he was "in Germany" the night before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge in 312 he must have taken the first jet to Italy the next morning, because the battle was fought on the River Tiber near Rome.

Quote:

He prayed for a victory and after he won, he used his sword as the symbol for Christianity.

Damn funny looking "sword".

Quote:

He immediately banned Judaism.

He did nothing of the sort.

Quote:

Ever try to nail a 4x4 to another 4x4? Almost impossible.

You can easily sharpen a 4x4 and bore a hole into another to make a simple crucifixion 'T'.

QM?

Or you can cut two indentations in both beams and fasten them at that point. The Romans managed to build things like vast aqueducts and the Pantheon, so I think they'd be capable of something small children learn in their first woodworking class. But whatever ...

reniaa · 12-12-2007, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Jesus and the Cross

The most important symbol in Christianity today is the cross.

However, there is no cross in early Christian art before the middle of the 5th century, where it appears on a coin in a painting. The first clear crucifixion appears in the late 7th century. Before then, Jesus was almost always depicted as a fish or a Shepard, never on a cross.

You've hit the nail on the head of a problem I have with christianity atm as an EX-JW i have always been brought up with a translation only using the original "stake" word so find the idea of the cross quite a complex thing to come to terms with when looking into other christian faiths.

But trying to look at the cross with an unbiased viewpoint it still seems like a symbol that has now leeked into idolotry with it's usage, so is wrong on that account too and thats aside from the fact that as a word it's in none of the original transcripts. which someone else pointed out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry

Quote:

There is no one section that clearly defines idolatry; rather there are a number of commandments on this subject spread through the books of the Hebrew Bible, some of which were written in different historical eras, in response to different issues. Taking these verses together, idolatry in the Hebrew Bible is defined as either:

the worship of idols (or images)
the worship of polytheistic gods by use of idols (or images)
the worship of animals or people
the use of idols in the worship of God.
In a number of places the Hebrew Bible makes clear that God has no shape or form, and is utterly incomparable; thus no idol, image, idea, or anything comparable to creation could ever capture God's essence.

Quote:

Exodus 20:1-2, NIV. " And God spoke all these words: 'I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. [1] You shall have no other gods before Me. [2] You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them;

And this was around the whole golden calf incident which was supposed to represent God and he wasn't happy with that :S

QuestionMark · 12-12-2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipope Innocent II

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuestionMark

King Constantine was in Germany the night before a battle.

"King" Constantine? And if he was "in Germany" the night before the Battle of the Milvian Bridge in 312 he must have taken the first jet to Italy the next morning, because the battle was fought on the River Tiber near Rome.

Damn funny looking "sword".

He did nothing of the sort.

Quote:

Ever try to nail a 4x4 to another 4x4? Almost impossible.

You can easily sharpen a 4x4 and bore a hole into another to make a simple crucifixion 'T'.

QM?

Or you can cut two indentations in both beams and fasten them at that point. The Romans managed to build things like vast aqueducts and the Pantheon, so I think they'd be capable of something small children learn in their first woodworking class. But whatever ...

Wiki:

Constantine instituted several legislative measures impacting on Jews. They were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves. Conversion of Christians to Judaism was outlawed. Congregations for religious services were restricted, but Jews were allowed to enter Jerusalem on Tisha B'Av, the anniversary of the destruction of the Temple.

QM?

Antipope Innocent II · 12-12-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuestionMark

Wiki:

Constantine instituted several legislative measures impacting on Jews. They were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves. Conversion of Christians to Judaism was outlawed. Congregations for religious services were restricted, but Jews were allowed to enter Jerusalem on Tisha B'Av, the anniversary of the destruction of the Temple.

QM?

All true. But that's not "banning Judaism" is it?

QuestionMark · 12-12-2007, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antipope Innocent II

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuestionMark

Wiki:

Constantine instituted several legislative measures impacting on Jews. They were forbidden to own Christian slaves or to circumcise their slaves. Conversion of Christians to Judaism was outlawed. Congregations for religious services were restricted, but Jews were allowed to enter Jerusalem on Tisha B'Av, the anniversary of the destruction of the Temple.

QM?

All true. But that's not "banning Judaism" is it?

Wiki offers just a brief description.

Restricting congregations for religious services?

Imagine if tomorrow that happened to Baptists.

QM?

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12-12-2007, 08:54 AM	#2
No Robots Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Edmonton Posts: 5,679	I don't know what your point is. However, the evidence is that many Christians found the crucifixion to be deeply embarrassing (see Gal. 5:11). Pagans did hit them over the head for worshipping "a crucified sophist."

12-12-2007, 08:54 AM	#3
QuestionMark Banned Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Boynton Beach, FL Posts: 3,432	Read 'CONSTANTINE'S CROSS' for the history of the sword symbol. A Crucifixion cross is shaped like a 'T' and not a 't'. QM?

12-12-2007, 01:54 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Do you mean Constantine's Sword (or via: amazon.co.uk)? I have not read the book yet, but I saw the documentary that James Carroll produced based on his book. His theory is that, before Constantine, Christian symbols were all life affirming - fish, sheep, etc. Then Constantine saw the image of the chi-rho cross in the heavens and used it to win military battles. But the defining event was when his mother, St. Helena, went to Palestine and discovered the fragments of the true cross upon which Jesus was crucified (reported enough of those fragments have been discovered to rebuild the ark, but anyway. . .) The cross was proof that the Jews had killed Jesus, and this started the long, unfortunate history of Christian anti-semitism. I haven't had time to reseach how much of this is undisputed history, and how much is just an attempt to create a better sort of Christianity by trying to go back to that mythical past when everything was good and peaceful. If you do have a chance to see the film, I recommend it highly.

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