Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-10-2013, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

...

Quote:

A favourite origin [of the "Testament of Job"] has been the Egyptian group called the therapeutae,
described by Philo, but the actual existence of such a group has recently been questioned. (See p.206)

I cant see page 206.

Is this a recent book? [YES: Psychology Press, 2000 - Religion - 424 pages]

Can anyone see who questioned the existence of the therapeutae in "VC" (Page 206)

From the Amazon site for Judaic Religion in the Second Temple Period: Belief and Practice from the Exile to Yavneh (or via: amazon.co.uk):

Quote:

it has recently been suggested that rather than describing an actual group, Philo has invented a Utopian picture which had no actual reality (Engbert-Pederson 1999). This argument no doubt needs a good deal of discussion, but it is well founded and requires a careful rethink of how this particular group is used in filling out the picture of early Judaism.

...

Engberg-Pedersen, Troels (1999) "Philo's De VIta Contemplativa as a Philosopher's Dream" JSJ 30:40-64

It seems to be on scribd

http://www.scribd.com/doc/67613391/P...gberg-Pedersen

Toto · 02-10-2013, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

She's reporting the fact that at least some people have questioned whether they existed.

Who are these people?

It has already been mentioned that the group might have been a product of Philo's imagination.

But they were the product of a Jewish imagination.

Can you try to do some of your own research instead of just asking questions?

Toto · 02-10-2013, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

..

The Jewish Encyclopedia: A Descriptive Record of the History, Religion, Literature, and Customs of the Jewish People from the Earliest Times to the Present Day, Volume 10 (or via: amazon.co.uk) by Isidore Singer and Cyrus Adler.

The claim that the author of "VC is virulently anti-pagan but that Philo is not.

That Philo is allied to Greek culture and philosophy, the author of "VC" is not.

That Philo praises Pythagoras, Plato, etc while the author of "VC" repudiates them.

That Philo has great respect for the symposium, while the author of "VC" presents a detestable, common drinking-bout.

That Philo respects the Platonic Eros, the author of "VC" does not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Jewish Encyclopedia

there are great dissimilarities between the fundamental conceptions of the author of the "De Vita Contemplativa" and those of Philo.

The latter looks upon Greek culture and philosophy as allies, the former is hostile to Greek philosophy (see Siegfried in "Protestantische Kirchenzeitung," 1896, No.42).

He repudiates a science that numbered among Its followers the sacred baud of the Pythagoreans, inspired men like Parmenides, Empedocles, Zeno, Cleanthes, Heraclitus, and Plato, whom Philo prized ("Quod Omnis Probus," i., ii.; "Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit," 43; "De Providentia," ii. 42, 48, etc.).

He considers the symposium a detestable, common drinking-bout. This can not be explained as a Stoic diatribe; for in this case Philo would not have repeated it.

And Philo would have been the last to interpret the Platonic Eros in the vulgar way in which it is explained in the "De Vita Contemplativa," 7 (ii. 480), as he repeatedly uses the myth of double man allegorically in his interpretation of Scripture ("De Opificio Mundi," 24; "De Allegoriis Legum," ii. 24).

It must furthermore be remembered that Philo in none of his other works mentions these colonies of allegorizing ascetics, in which he would have been highly interested had he known of them.

or see the WIKI page on Philo's manuscripts.

There is no source to these claims that I can trace. There is a reference to a 19th century German Protestant Church magazine, but that is not reliable.

There are some online resources for Philo e.g.

Runia "How to read Philo".

Runia makes the point that Philo used Greek reasoning to promote Jewish scripture, but that Greek reasoning almost over took him. It appears to be a complex relationship, much as the relationship between Christian apologetics and secular reasoning..

Quote:

In the process of expounding Mosaic scripture he becomes, almost unwittingly, a proponent of the Hellenistic paideia. It is not just that Philo, in his role as apologist of scripture, feels that he must defend the contents of scripture with reference to certain Greek philosophical ideas. Thoroughly immersed in Hellenistic paideia as the result of his education and further studies, Philo himself has accepted the 'language of reason' supplied by Greek philosophy as the intellectual framework of reference within which scripture is to be explained. The primacy of scripture is retained, but only to the extent that it guides him in selecting which aspects of the 'language of reason' are more and which are less conducive to his exegetical purpose. We see now what is perhaps the chief reason that Philo expounds the Pentateuch only. He welcomes the concentration on Moses the great sage, who is not only the prophetic vehicle of God's revealed word, but can also as philosophos beat the famous Greek lawgivers (foremost among them Plato) at their own game (cf. esp. De Opificio mundi 8). We recognize now too how risky Philo's venture is. I can do no better than repeat P. Borgen's concise formulation: Philo is 'a conqueror on the verge of being conquered.'

I would like to ask you to stop reposting blocks of quotes from 19th century sources, especially that wikipedia copy of the Jewish encyclopedia's citation of some German. Find at least a late 20th century source. Or read Philo for yourself and point out where there are differences between VC and other works by Philo.

mountainman · 02-11-2013, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

She's reporting the fact that at least some people have questioned whether they existed.

Who are these people?

It has already been mentioned that the group might have been a product of Philo's imagination.

But they were the product of a Jewish imagination.

Can you try to do some of your own research instead of just asking questions?

Thanks Toto.

I had seen part of this in two articles:

(1) the claim that "VC" = Hellenistic Utopian writings

Christian Origins, Egalitarianism, and Utopia - Journal of Feminist Studies in ReligionVol. 23, No. 2, Fall, 2007 by Mary Ann Beavis Page 46 of 27-49

Quote:

P46

"I have argued elsewhere that Philo's acount of the therapeutai
in De Vita Contemplativa shows many parallels with the
Hellenistic Utopian writings, especially Diodorus's account
of Heliopolitans."

(2) the similar claim that "VC" = Philosopher's Dream

Eusebius of Caesarea's "Interpretatio Christiana" of Philo's De vita contemplative by Sabrina Inowlocki

Quote:

Page [305] of 305-328

It has recently been argued that VC was only a Philonic utopia:
see Troels Engberg-Pedersen, "Philo's DVC as a Philosopher's Dream",
JSJ 30 (1999) 40-64

Toto · 02-11-2013, 12:07 AM

More from Runia:

Quote:

. In the historical-apologetic works we encounter a different situation. As the name implies, Philo's apologetic concern is now more directly focussed on the concrete historical situation of the Jewish people in the past and in his own time. The rhetorical mode of presentation causes more serious interpretative difficulties here, for we are confronted with 'historical accounts' quite different to what we are used to. The best known example is Philo's fascinating depiction of the Therapeutae (in the De vita contemplativa). There is of course no direct exegesis in these writings. But the apologist at work is the same man who regards the wisdom of Moses as his nation's greatest drawcard. Every effort should be made to relate the contents of these works to exegetical themes elaborated in the main body of Philo's writings.

So who are you going to believe?

mountainman · 02-11-2013, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I would like to ask you to stop reposting blocks of quotes from 19th century sources, especially that wikipedia copy of the Jewish encyclopedia's citation of some German. Find at least a late 20th century source. Or read Philo for yourself and point out where there are differences between VC and other works by Philo.

Someone (a 19th century German or otherwise) has already done research in presenting the basis for this summary of claims. I have merely drawn attention to these claims and posted them for discussion. The full text which I was posting contains the specific references in Philo's other works that the author of these claims uses to support his/her argument. I will stop posting the detail quote, having made this summary....

Summary of Claims made about the author of "VC" and Philo

The claim that the author of "VC is virulently anti-pagan but that Philo is not.

That Philo is allied to Greek culture and philosophy, the author of "VC" is not.

That Philo praises Pythagoras, Plato, etc while the author of "VC" repudiates them.

That Philo has great respect for the symposium, while the author of "VC" presents a detestable, common drinking-bout.

That Philo respects the Platonic Eros, the author of "VC" does not.

stephan huller · 02-11-2013, 12:25 AM

It seems at times that this is the any answer but the right answer thread. Why the desperateness with respect to the Jewishness of the group?

Toto · 02-11-2013, 12:26 AM

Pete - the idea that VC was a later forgery is comparable to the theory of phlogiston. It's dead. Is there anything left of this thread? Can it also die?

stephan huller · 02-11-2013, 12:40 AM

We all know that he can keep posting the same things over and over again, cut and paste, cut and paste. What a great way to conduct scholarship.

mountainman · 02-11-2013, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Engberg-Pedersen, Troels (1999) "Philo's De VIta Contemplativa as a Philosopher's Dream" JSJ 30:40-64

It seems to be on scribd

http://www.scribd.com/doc/67613391/P...gberg-Pedersen

He states upfront at footnote [1] "I presuppose without discussion Philonic authorship of the treatise."

He also states that:

Quote:

"The theme of the lives [bioi] was a well
established one in the ancient world, clearly
presented, for instance by Aristotle near the
beginning of his "Nicomachean Ethics" (1.5). There
Aristotle lists four lives as possible candidates
for the happy life. The two to which Philo refers -
"the practical life" and (the life of) "those who
have welcomed contemplation (theoria) - are also the
two of the foremost importance in Aristotle."

This is an interesting point.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

02-11-2013, 12:25 AM	#857
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	It seems at times that this is the any answer but the right answer thread. Why the desperateness with respect to the Jewishness of the group?

02-11-2013, 12:26 AM	#858
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Pete - the idea that VC was a later forgery is comparable to the theory of phlogiston. It's dead. Is there anything left of this thread? Can it also die?

02-11-2013, 12:40 AM	#859
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	We all know that he can keep posting the same things over and over again, cut and paste, cut and paste. What a great way to conduct scholarship.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.