Naked Ape

Perhaps it would be better if you trained your children not to ask questions about things that you don't want them to get different answers for.
Do you have an issue with us telling your kids that our opinion is being censored by their parents because they disagree with us and leaving it at that?

Do you send your kids out of the house with your list of forbidden topics stapled to their shirts as reference for the rest of us? Without this information, how would we know how to respond to any of their questions?

Cheers,

Naked Ape

Madkins007

As I have said before- I have an issue with you telling my YOUNG kids something that conflicts with HOW YOU KNOW I am trying to raise them.

I don't believe in bubble or greenhouse kids, and as I have said over and over, when my kid is old enough to ask questions about abstract concepts and understand the issues, you can have these conversations. I don't particularly care what you did with your 8 year old neice- she's old enough to deal with the issue. (I still would not have done it, but that's me.)

If I recall the OP, the child in question was younger, AND the poster knew it conflicted with the parent's teachings, and I still maintain he handled it badly.

Not in teling the 'truth' (as he sees it), but in setting it up as a 'me vs. mommy' issue- "I'm right, she's wrong".

With kids in this age group (toddler to about 7'ish), the parents try to leave them with people they consider 'safe', and part of that peace of mind is that the caregivers share approximately the same value system. It is not often that parents leave their kids in the care of people they are afraid will try to teach them things the parents consider questionable so a list of 'safe topics' is not an issue.

If you (a generic 'you', not meant to be you specifically!) are on the 'considered safe' list and use your time to show the kids movies you know mom and dad disagree with, or otherwise demonstrate that you are unwilling to respect the parent's wishes, then you have blown some trust.

You can argue all you want that you were just telling them 'the truth', but that rings pretty hollow to me as a parent. You had other options without lying, and specifically chose one that creates conflict.

Naked Ape

Madkins007,

My contention all along has been that if the child can ask questions about abstract concepts, then they deserve an honest answer. I am not sure how to determine whether or not they can understand the issues, since this understanding will be different from different sides of the fence. Besides, how does one develop understanding of new issues if understanding is required first? Sounds like a catch-22 to me.

In many theistic parents minds, understanding takes a back seat to faith, and trying to aquire understanding is seen as a sinful questioning of the authorities who have already told the little darlings what to believe. To attempt understanding would be questioning authority, and if you let kids question authority...well the words "hell" and "handbasket" usually appear somewhere in the rest of that speech.

I am generaly anti-authoritarian, as such, authoritarian parents and I do not generaly see eye to eye. Rabid authoritarians are not a fan of my "question everything, keep what is good." motto. They usually insist that Paul meant that in a rather different way than I take it.

Cheers,

Naked Ape

ticcan

I disagree. Parents may raise the child by virtue that they - well one of them - gave birth to it and that is the custom. However that does not mean that they have a monopoly on teaching the child anything at all. The child foremost is a human being and will be mentally independant of their parents sooner rather than later, what a parents wishes are, are confined to what the parents themselves teach the child, i dont think you are constrained in the slighest from explaining something in a manner the parent would not approve of. I do however think this should be balanced out by adding that this is not what everyone believes and the your parents may believe otherwise.

As someone else said kids see things in black and white, and if you tell them something is either black or white it will often leave an indellible mark on them, open mindedness should always be encouraged whether with or against the parents wishes, contrary viewpoints are v healthy

Naked Ape

Ooops. Nothing to see here... move along

getalong

An adult should have the social skills to know that's a question to be dodged.

On the other hand, not all children would be in a quandry. Mine figured out on her own via your option (d) that there was no Santa around the age of 3 in spite of our best efforts and loudly and insistently announced it in pre-school. :rolling: Our next door neighbor at the age of 7 went around telling all the 3 year olds there was no santa and giving them advice on how to catch their parents implementing the lie and most of the kids immediately resorted to your options (a) and (c).

Referring to a different post, the reaction 'your mother and I disagree and you should ask your mother' seems a perfectly appropriate reponse to a topic a parent has asked you not to address with their child. I can't see how that gives the parent room to complain about your behavior.

getalong

getalong

But that isn't an understanding that monsters are not real so much as an understanding that it's impossible for them to be under the bed.

Monsters have existed throughout the ages, long before TV. Children who know they don't exist and think the whole idea silly (like teens) can still be frightened of them under the right circumstances.

getalong

JCS

The idea is, show them how to examine what they don't understand. Looking under the bed with the flashlight did not disprove the existance of monsters but it gave the monster one less place to hide, and a means for testing other potential hiding places. One step at a time, making them monsters of the gaps. Only the individual can choose what to believe, but given a means to examine those beliefs...... well, you do your best and you hope for the best.

JCS

Madkins007

On faith: I agree with you and am happy that this is not the case on this end. I am not a blind faith kinda guy. I don't believe in creationism, the Trinity, Genesis, or most human-established doctrines. I don't agree with many Christians on the rapture, prayer, sin, evangelism, inerrency, and more.

On understanding: Maybe this is the big catch between us. I have suspected that we were closer in belief and practive than this discussion might otherwise indicate.

Obviously, little kids understand a little, and as they grow, they understand more. Every learned item creates a foundation for a new piece of learning. So far, so good?

When a child can see, touch, manipulate something, they will understand it faster. These are the concrete objects and the basic properties of concreteness is mastered by about age 2 or so.

For the next several years, the child will struggle with increasingly abstract concepts. Some will be easier for some kids than others, but overall, this understanding comes slower and takes longer to integrate into the child's worldview.

Many abstracts are generally agreed upon, and indeed generally form the first forays into this world- the larger world around them, social structures, math, money, etc.

So, how do you know when a kid is ready to learn this stuff, or at what stage they are at? The flippant answer would be that if you don't know, don't go messing with them. The more practical answer is that you can usually figure it out based on observation and discussion.

(As an aside, I find it intersting that in another thread in the SL forum, a mom is complaining that her teacher mentioned god to her kid in public school. By many poster's reasoning here, she should welcome the teacher's comments as a chance for their child to learn to think independently about that {apart from the issues about church/state}).

Oh, and I agree with you on Paul's quote!

Madkins007

"Parents may raise the child by virtue that they - well one of them - gave birth to it and that is the custom" ??? Actually, it is the biological imperative. Parents of most mammal species raise their young instinctively. Sure, others help (noticeably aunts in most species that practice extended care).

I would also mention that if you started to wander the streets teaching young children (toddler to about 7) things the parents disagreed with, the courts would quickly side with the parents (except in a few extreme cases).

As for contrary viewpoints being healthy- if I am raising my kids that there are no ghosts or monsters under the bed, you think that teaching that there ARE would be healthy? (Hey, if everyone else can push my comments to the extreme, then I get to play too!)