Malachi151

An even better question perhaps is, since Paul talked so much about baptism, isn't it odd that he never mentioned John the Baptist if indeed either Jesus was real and was really baptized by John the Baptist, or if John the Baptist were a direct inspiration for Paul's baptism?

spin

I don't find it a better question. I'm used to Paul's attitude. Other gospels don't come up to his. His was revealed by god hisself. He didn't get stuff from human beings. I wouldn't expect him to refer to JtB.

So, where did he get this baptism stuff?


spin

No Robots

Keep in mind that Paul did not consider baptism a critical aspect of his mission:

For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.--1Cor 1:17

gurugeorge

Well as a possible avenue to explore, to start with compare and contrast meditation "techniques" in Eastern systems of training or practicing to induce mystical experience. I know a Daoist priest whose teacher, when asked the perennial question "what's the difference between Buddhism and Daoism?" thought for a moment and quipped "the robes" (a traditional joke amongst meditators). Since many of the sorts of people who would do these kinds of things hardcore were hermits who would live in the mountains in scattered communities of like-minded folks, there were often commonalities of practice and "technique" that overrode doctrinal differences.

It might go some way to answering your question to conceive of the background context for Paul being somewhat analogous, and to conceive of full body immersion as having been used (at least occasionally) to induce mystical experience through NDE (near death experience) by near-drowning, and to conceive of this "technique" as moderately widespread across the Graeco-Roman world and the Middle East.

I think it's especially suggestive with Paul in that a) he makes it clear baptism isn't for everyone, and b) the symbolism he associates with baptism is Jesus' death, entombment and resurrection, and that s/he who is baptised is "with Christ" in this process. Of course it's possible to read this as merely symbolic, but there's actually no reason not to read it in a more robust sense: the candidate would be held down to the extent they thought they were about to die, their normal sense of selfhood would be suspended - they'd literally give up the ghost (in the machine) - and they would have a unitary mystical experience - "resurrection" with Christ, or coming to realise "Christ in you" (i.e. probably a non-dual mystical understanding similar to Advaita Vedanta and non-dual Buddhist forms like Ch'an - Zen - and Dzogchen, and similar indeed to what's adumbrated in GThomas. Failing that, they might get the more
common NDE experience of tunnel - light - "astral" travel, meeting and speaking with entities, etc.).

From an article about the use of NDE inducement in shamanism:

gstafleu

Well, this page provides some hints. An answer seems to be: It was in the air. It may not be possible to give an answer exact in particulars ("This early Christian copied such-and-such a rite from that religion"), but a general answer ("Everybody was doing it" (well, except the Jews)) seems possible.

Of course for that infamous sect, Mainstream Scholarship, it is always possible to waive such a solution away. I particularly like the following quote on that page:
(my bold)
Notice the cleverly hidden appeal to authority here: clearly any opinion that differs from the one stated is not "mature."

Gerard Stafleu

youngalexander

Wot fun!
Do you have any stats on the % of fatalities?

Malachi151

Dunno, I assume that it was simply a practice that existed among the existing Christ worshipers of the time, James, Peter, etc., and where they got it from I don't know, but I don't think that this leads to the conclusion that "John the Baptist" was an influence on Paul.

gurugeorge

Hehe, no, but I came across a website recently (sorry can't recover surf path to URL) where someone talked about some contemporary hardcore baptism ceremonies amongst some African Christian types where fatalities were not unknown.

They were made of sterner stuff in those days!

Understandably though, as Christianity spread to matrons in nice families, a sprinkle would suffice, for symbolic "dying in Christ"'s sake

spin

If Paul got the impetus of his religion from his divine revelation, then he is not consciously reaching back to any earlier apostles for ideas (his gospel was not "from humans, nor was he taught it", and he received nothing from the pillars). Yet he claims his background to have been conservative Jewish, which from what can be known of the time didn't include baptism (conservative Jews practised ritual bathing, ie it was regular, not a one-off initiation). So where he got baptism is an interesting question, though I wouldn't presume that he got it from John himself, though it had to have been legitimated in his eyes somehow.


spin

Ted Hoffman

He consistently gets legitimation from scripture and revelation. To get an artifact of his religion from a human being would be exceptional rather than the norm.