Freethought & Rationalism Archive

outhouse · 04-05-2012, 02:38 PM

Quote:

I can't believe this is controversial. Is atheism uncontrolled egoism. I couldn't give a flying f--- about any of this. But I would naturally incline in favor of what an ancient witness said about an ancient book over a modern witness. Why is this controversial?

you just dont get it do you???

the unknown authors of Gmark knew almost nothing of HJ except through cross cultural oral tradition.

Didnt live where jesus did
didnt belong to the same culture
didnt live like jesus

Gmark makes a horrible witness because he wasnt one, YET you want to bring in someone with far less knowledge on the subject and use him . kind of pathetic dude

Duvduv · 04-05-2012, 02:46 PM

How do you know where Clement was there? Because church historians say he was, and that in fact he existed, right?
Mark wrote his gospel? How do you know who wrote the gospel when? Maybe the gospel was written by Jerry from Albany New York for all we know. OK, it's called Mark, but who knows when it was really written?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Quote:

Isn't it more correct to say that Clement of Alexandria matters more because centuries of church doctrine says he does?!

No he's right there! He in the city where Mark wrote his gospel (Clement of Alexandria; John Chrysostom; the Acts of Barnabas etc). The evangelist didn't just take his book to the publisher (or whoever wrote in his name). There is evidence from Irenaeus and other sources that he established a method of interpreting his text too.

I can't be sure that everything that Clement says is the correct interpretation of the gospel in exactly the way Mark laid it down in Alexandria but it's irrelevant. It necessarily better than anything that a modern could come up.

So my point is - we can read what Ehrman has to say or Turton has to say but we weigh Clement's testimony more heavily. Clement presumably knows better than any of them.

I can't believe this is controversial. Is atheism uncontrolled egoism. I couldn't give a flying f--- about any of this. But I would naturally incline in favor of what an ancient witness said about an ancient book over a modern witness. Why is this controversial?

stephan huller · 04-05-2012, 03:55 PM

So we should ignore the living voice of a slave to understand the perils of slavery?

stephan huller · 04-05-2012, 04:02 PM

If Bart ehrman had a time machine and landed in 2nd century Alexandria you dont think his research would improve?

Duvduv · 04-05-2012, 05:01 PM

The living voice, or something written by a biased mouthpiece of the Organization?

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

So we should ignore the living voice of a slave to understand the perils of slavery?

stephan huller · 04-05-2012, 05:42 PM

I'd rather have one second century 'mouthpiece of an organization' devoted to preserving the memory of its patron saint Mark the evangelist than 1,000,000 Bart Ehrman's. Especially when that individual is the erudite Clement of Alexandria. There are few more intelligent people in all of history.

If you lazies actually spent a few years reading the Church Fathers you wouldn't be so biased against their testimony - and it has nothing to do with 'agreeing' with what they have to say. People attached to an ancient tradition are to be preferred over modern charge by the hour scholars. Today's scholars are more concerned with getting published than anything else.

I'd argue that if you look at the body of work for any given academic you could cut the productivity in half and you'd be still left with too much waffle.

Diogenes the Cynic · 04-05-2012, 05:48 PM

Two questions, Stephan:

1. Upon what do you base your assertion that Mark was written in Egypt?
2. By what means would Clement be able to divine the authorial intentions behind a book written ~70-100 years before?

Arguing that Clement lived in the same city where an author he never met had written a book in the previous century is hardly compelling evidence that Clement understood Mark's every thought.

You identify your own location as the same city that Kurt Cobain was from. Does that mean you can understand and explain the lyrics to "Serve the Servants" better than someone who is from, say, Minnesota?

outhouse · 04-05-2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

So we should ignore the living voice of a slave to understand the perils of slavery?

BS :hysterical:

Clement was so far from a historical jesus and the unknown authors of Gmark he probably falsely attributed to johnmark.

Clement was in the complete dark to a real Galilean jew.

So heres a guy we should all bow down to and trust who doesnt even know who the unknown authors of Gmark probably were, written in Syria.

You have to be joking

Duvduv · 04-05-2012, 06:01 PM

How do you know they were "preserving" and not "inventing" or creating?? You don't have to insult anyone. I have read Dialogue with Trypho and the First Apology of Justin, and they really don't say much. We also see that Irenaeus and his Four Gospels is clearly a much later creation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I'd rather have one second century 'mouthpiece of an organization' devoted to preserving the memory of its patron saint Mark the evangelist than 1,000,000 Bart Ehrman's. Especially when that individual is the erudite Clement of Alexandria. There are few more intelligent people in all of history.

If you lazies actually spent a few years reading the Church Fathers you wouldn't be so biased against their testimony - and it has nothing to do with 'agreeing' with what they have to say. People attached to an ancient tradition are to be preferred over modern charge by the hour scholars. Today's scholars are more concerned with getting published than anything else.

I'd argue that if you look at the body of work for any given academic you could cut the productivity in half and you'd be still left with too much waffle.

outhouse · 04-05-2012, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I'd rather have one second century 'mouthpiece of an organization' devoted to preserving the memory of its patron saint Mark the evangelist than 1,000,000 Bart Ehrman's. Especially when that individual is the erudite Clement of Alexandria. There are few more intelligent people in all of history.

If you lazies actually spent a few years reading the Church Fathers you wouldn't be so biased against their testimony - and it has nothing to do with 'agreeing' with what they have to say. People attached to an ancient tradition are to be preferred over modern charge by the hour scholars. Today's scholars are more concerned with getting published than anything else.

I'd argue that if you look at the body of work for any given academic you could cut the productivity in half and you'd be still left with too much waffle.

Ah yes lets trust people who falsely attribute works to people that seem to fit the bill with no education at all on the subject at hand.

:vomit:

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04-05-2012, 03:55 PM	#103
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	So we should ignore the living voice of a slave to understand the perils of slavery?

04-05-2012, 04:02 PM	#104
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	If Bart ehrman had a time machine and landed in 2nd century Alexandria you dont think his research would improve?

04-05-2012, 05:42 PM	#106
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I'd rather have one second century 'mouthpiece of an organization' devoted to preserving the memory of its patron saint Mark the evangelist than 1,000,000 Bart Ehrman's. Especially when that individual is the erudite Clement of Alexandria. There are few more intelligent people in all of history. If you lazies actually spent a few years reading the Church Fathers you wouldn't be so biased against their testimony - and it has nothing to do with 'agreeing' with what they have to say. People attached to an ancient tradition are to be preferred over modern charge by the hour scholars. Today's scholars are more concerned with getting published than anything else. I'd argue that if you look at the body of work for any given academic you could cut the productivity in half and you'd be still left with too much waffle.

04-05-2012, 05:48 PM	#107
Diogenes the Cynic Moderator - Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posts: 4,639	Two questions, Stephan: 1. Upon what do you base your assertion that Mark was written in Egypt? 2. By what means would Clement be able to divine the authorial intentions behind a book written ~70-100 years before? Arguing that Clement lived in the same city where an author he never met had written a book in the previous century is hardly compelling evidence that Clement understood Mark's every thought. You identify your own location as the same city that Kurt Cobain was from. Does that mean you can understand and explain the lyrics to "Serve the Servants" better than someone who is from, say, Minnesota?

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